Kelly  00:00

Coaching business models really rely on defined-end programs, a program where you would bring someone in. They're at point A, they've got certain pain points, maybe it's a weight loss program, maybe it's around getting rid of back pain. Point B is 4,6,8 months later, you've been working with them, they no longer have this problem. So it's a defined end program. It's transformational. It's life changing. I'm a big advocate of instructors and trainers finding what that is for them.

Will:  00:36

Hey, Kelly, welcome to the Group Fitness Real Talk podcast. How are you today?

Kelly  00:40

Hey, Will, it's so good to see you. Thank you for having me.

Will:  00:43

My pleasure, it was good to have you back. So you're actually a previous guest of the podcast. While that'd be going back two years, I guess. Would have been the deep, darkest parts of lockdown maybe.

Kelly  00:56

Yeah. And I think it was around the same time of year, we were talking about things that would affect instructors, trainers, coaches going into the new year.

Will:  01:05

I know that you've got a lot of knowledge in this area, which is why I tapped you. So Kelly, you were previously on episode 24. I looked at it right before this. And we talked about the 3 biggest mistakes that for pros can make. But today we're going to be talking about something a little bit different, which is something that is so important for all fitness professional professionals, which is how to package your product. But before we get into that, I was hoping you could tell our listeners some of them have obviously heard from you before, but in case they haven't a little bit about yourself.

Kelly  01:31

Oh, thank you so much. So yes, I'm Kelly Coulter, I've got the Grow Your Fitness Business for Instructors, Trainers, and Coaches group on Facebook. That's 8700 instructors, all trainers, coaches, all working together to create direct to consumer businesses. So I work with people who are working directly with clients to improve their health outcomes. On top of the Grow Your Fitness Business group, I've got Fit Pros Connect. So I do some workshops and trainings through that. And that's at fitprosconnect.com and previously, before becoming a mentor and a coach for fitness instructors and personal trainers, I had a marketing agency. So I've 20 years in marketing, and then now been just obsessed with helping fitness pros create direct to consumer businesses for the last few years.

Will:  02:25

Yeah. And what I love about what you do with your business is you're all about making sure that instructors that really love instructing get some insight into how they can actually make it a business that allows them to do what they love, right?

Kelly  02:38

Because you're about to hit a hot button issue with me. 

Will:  02:43

So let's let's get right into it. So what what motivated you to start the start the business that you are running now?

Kelly  02:50

Oh, well, two things. So I'll tell you the the story the the origin story, which is that I had the Grow Your Fitness Business for Instructors, Trainers and Coaches Group for a long time since 2008. And that was because I was in marketing. And so I understood the power of Facebook groups. So I I had created that group and then I knew I wanted to be a coach and I wanted to get rid of the marketing agency for a long time. But I wasn't seeing that kind of parallel just yet. How can I convince instructors that they could create a business? And then the pandemic hit, of course, and it was like, I was just up at night? I think at that time I grew up had maybe 4000 in it, and I was up at night like how do I help these people buy gas and buy groceries? So many instructors and trainers were just going from gym to gym to gym had no plan B and then their their income was just cut off. So I just started going online and saying, here's how you get paid through PayPal. Here's how you do a zoom, here's how you do all the little things. That turned into a boot camp, the boot camp turned into an academy. And so now I have an academy and I do a training program a couple times a year that where I do kind of five days to get people started.

Will:  04:09

And how do you how are you seeing the industry now that we're hopefully coming out of the pandemic? Like do you think that that the industry has sustained the change that they've made? Or do you see people slipping back into the same habits that they had before?

Kelly  04:23

You know, I do think people want to work out live and I'm even seeing, I'm seeing little businesses that are cropping up around groups and challenges that can be done at the gym. So I think we've really added a lot of options and kind of depth and breadth to what we can do with clients. I don't see instructors and trainers going direct to consumer. I don't see that idea going anywhere. I think that that's only going to grow and I like to see it as we are kind of like this army of professionals who It can reach beyond the 20% of people who have an existing fitness practice. So we have, you know, Aunt Sally, who says, I'm not going to go to the gym until I lose 10 pounds, or, you know, we've got this reach with people who are directly in our lives or kind of indirectly in our lives. And we can just get so many more people moving as individuals. And we couldn't do that when we were kind of like, when the desk sat between us and our clients.

Will:  05:31

You know, I have to say that I have, obviously, with SH1FT, we work with individual instructors and then we also work with club chains. And then you know, like all fitness people, I wear a lot of hats, and so do some consultancy in the club space too. And, and did a lot of work around digital transformation and bringing people into digital fitness and online. And I have to say that I watched a lot of the facilities that I worked with, as soon as they can reopen, and it's completely understandable because they had pivoted into doing digital and then they were doing that while facilities were closed, but when they started to reopen again, they dropped the digital like a hot potato. And they understand the benefit of omnichannel. But mostly because it was really, really difficult. And much, much harder to sustain when you're already running a business, if you know, if your clubs closed, and you've got a studio spare and your instructors aren't doing anything, and there's no class running, then it's really easy to like record a video that will later go on your digital proposition. But when you're trying to manage people being live back, it was just too much. And so I've seen live facilities really go back to catering for that 10 to 20% that we catered for, historically within the industry. So the people that were already exercising, and I really do see the opportunity for individual fitness professionals to bridge that gap and to continue reaching out to the 80% that don't exercise because before the pandemic, they were the ones we weren't reaching. And then we did reach them during the pandemic, which was just counterintuitive, right? Like it, the worst health crisis of all is the time that we reach the people that need the health benefits of fitness the most. And now we have the opportunity to do that again.

Kelly  07:05

Oh my gosh, that that is brilliant. I love that you just said that. And I think that you just illustrated my point in such a more well rounded way. 

Will:  07:22

So, now we're gonna get into...Well, let's just get into the, into the meat of what we're going to be talking about today right now, which is how to package your proposition and how to turn that into something that is marketable, which is obviously your speciality, but something that that allows instructors to take the thing that they're passionate about, and actually turn it into a business because, as we talked about, sort of when we first started talking, one of the biggest problems that I have seen with instructors is understanding how to create a great class to deliver a great class and to create a community. But then when it comes to putting that into a business plan, or creating a product that they can sell, that they can sell for enough money that they can, you know, make a living and continue to do the things that they love in their community. That's the bit where instructors often fall down. And I think this is something that we touched on a lot when you're on the podcast previously. So having worked with so many more instructors and fitness professionals during that time, I'm really excited to hear what you have to say. So let's break it right down. So when it comes to how to package a proposition, what do you mean by a proposition? Tell me like, right, right, from sort of the the most basic elements of the question.

Kelly  08:31

You know, I think you touched on it a little bit when you started talking about the difference in the business model between being online and, and having people coming into the club. There's a difference between a coaching business model and a club business model. And coaching business models really rely on defined end programs. So a program where you would bring someone in, you would they're at point A, they've got certain pain points. Maybe it's a weight loss program, maybe it's around getting rid of back pain, whatever it is, they've got too much weight, they've got back pain. Point B is 4,6,8 months later, you've been working with them, they no longer have this problem. So it's a defined end program. It's transformational. It's life changing. I'm a big advocate of instructors and trainers finding what that is for them, what transformation do they want to teach, and then going out and finding those people. So there's a big difference in how you would identify your clients. Of course, there's a big difference in how you charge for that. And there's a big difference in what you do inside that program. The great thing about defined end programs is that you can leverage them in terms of your, the work that you're doing. So they're leveraged, it's one to many, it's repeatable, it's rinse and repeat. And in terms of the way that you connect with your clients and the way that you change their lives. So designed end programs.

Will:  10:05

Okay, defined end programs. So I've written that down, because I want to get more into that. But there was quite a lot there that I would like to sort of wind back and discuss because I think it's it touches on one of the things that was a little bit what I was trying to say maybe not expressing very well before, around how instructors often find it hard to think about what they are as a product, and especially fitness instructors. So PTs are more akin to doing this because they've been doing it for a long time, right, like people often coming for personal trainers, obviously they train with them for a long time. But the but the transformation with a high price point person like a PT has been there for a while. Group fitness instructors who are maybe struggling with how to package themselves might be struggling, because for the longest time, they have been a a regular occurrence on a timetable that has been a teaching a class where people have turned up, they've enjoyed the class, they've built a community, but they haven't necessarily been thinking in terms of this defined in program. Is that fair to say?

Kelly  11:03

Oh, very fair. Yes.

Will:  11:06

So tell me a little bit about how so when you say defined end programming, maybe give some examples of what that could look like for the average fitness instructor. So let's let's focus mostly, I know you work with all different types of fitness professionals, but let's let's zone in on fitness instructors and people that teach group fitness. They are creating a business for themselves. They teach a little bit online. They teach a little bit in the community, teach a little bit at a big box gym, how would they go about determining what their ideal client or niche is? 

Kelly  11:35

Oh, very good. So um, I think I'm thinking of a few of my specific accelerators. And I'll just go through kind of what they do. So I've got Maria, who is over 75, and she's an instructor and she also competes in fitness competitions. 

Will:  11:51

She sounds amazing. 

Kelly  11:53

So incredible. Yeah, her Facebook group is Flourish with Age, go check it out.

Will:  12:00

We'll put a link in the show notes, we'll find that one and then stick a link because she sounds like someone to follow. 

Kelly  12:05

So cool. So she strength trains with women over 75. And she created a program for strength training with women over 75. And then I've got another coach who does the same thing. But she coaches people going into fitness competitions. So she was a personal trainer. She she's passionate about fitness competitions, she coaches people going into fitness competitions. Debbie Bellanger is one of my coaches, a lot of people know her because she's she's been a speaker in the industry for a long time and she not only was a group fitness instructor, but she also has a long history in corporate wellness. So now she teaches programs around creating partnerships with corporations. So she has the background as an instructor and, and with the corporations. My client, Leanne that I was just with a minute ago, created an at home version of something that might be akin to I don't even want to say it, it starts with an O and I don't know if I shouldn't say the name. But you know, it's got a treadmill. And then you do some rowing and you do a lot of other things. And so then now she's got three coaches under her and a nutrition component to her program. And it's all done from home. So the key for any instructor or trainer is to look at not only what is your experience, which is you've been in the gym, helping people but then what is your education? What is your life experience? What is your community like outside of the gym? What are you passionate about? What what changes would you really like to help me help people make?

Will:  13:51

Do you find that people struggle with, with defining this down like is in the overall like number of decisions that a person needs to make in order to create this to find the program? Do you find that sort of figuring out what the client type is? Is something difficult for people? I know, for our for our some within our business at SH1FT, this was a something that we did right at the start. No, actually not right at the start towards the end of 2020. And we looked about like that out, getting tongue tied, our ideal client avatar, and it was such a process because obviously, you want to be for everybody. And we've talked about on the podcast before. But if you're for everybody, then you end up being for nobody, because you've got to find the people that are within your tribe that are coming to you. And if you're trying to bring everybody in, that means that you're not really nailing the niche that you need to be focusing on.

Kelly  14:41

Yes, yes, that that is absolutely the hardest thing for people to do. It's scary. It's uncertain. They're, you know, their brain doesn't know what that looks like on the other side. So the caveman is coming in trying to drag them back into the cave.

Will:  14:55

And you're worried that you're going to be turning people off right? Like I can only think, oh, but I don't want to turn anybody away and it's like, well, you need to figure out who you are.

Kelly  15:03

Yeah, it's a process we do a lot of mindset in within my my paid coaching, and it's a lot around fear, money stories, we all have money stories as instructors, trainers, coaches, we've all been at the bottom of the barrel in the fitness industry for a long time. So mindset is, is huge also, you know, just, I tend to approach it from a vision of your, your happy journey, I always say that an unhappy journey will never lead to a happy ending. So what makes you happy day to day, if you and I were sitting down, and having a glass of wine a year from now, and your business is exactly what you want it to be? And you're, you know, maybe even looking into the future, like, what are you saying about the way things are now? And what are you saying about the future? And I say glass of wine, because you have to get relaxed and really stop thinking about...

Will:  16:00

You're speaking my language when you say that.

Kelly  16:03

I'm gonna come and have a glass of wine from Paris. But, you know, it's not, it's not, what does the future look like, based on the constraints and the things that I'm feeling right now. It's what does the future look like if I've had a glass of wine and I could say, something like, I want to be on Oprah's Super Soul Sunday and not feel like that's never gonna happen. So just the idea of getting kind of super real with yourself about what what does the happy journey look like? I have a lot of, I'm sorry, if I'm going to like ramble a littl bit...

Will:  16:40

No, no, ramble away. That's what this podcast is for.

Kelly  16:44

Thank you. I have a lot of people, people that will come to me and they'll say, okay, what I really want to be doing is wellness retreat. But I think what I need to do first is create this audience and do this thing. And then I've got to teach them this. And then I've got to create this program. And I'm like, why don't you just go book a wellness retreat and then ask people if they want to come to it?

Will:  17:08

That sounds very simple.

Kelly  17:12

Start by starting.

Will:  17:14

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. That is very good advice. Stop. I started. I haven't done that. I've actually heard anybody say that before. But it is, it is very, very true. Because until you start, you can't really figure out anything you're doing right or wrong, right? Yeah.

Kelly  17:27

And that's so true with these programs, too. Because the truth is, the best way to become an excellent coach is just to start coaching.

Will:  17:36

So your view is that if someone's struggling with figuring out what type of what type of client do I want to attract, who's my avatar, what's my niche, is to sit down and think, okay, if everything goes right in a year from now, what do I see myself doing? And then think about the people, the community, the types of person you are helping at that point, and then work back from there as to what you need to be setting up now to get there. Is that, is that right?

Kelly  18:00

Absolutely. Another great tool that I'll use sometimes is who do you not want to serve? Because a lot of times people can't say who they want to serve. But if you ask them who they don't want to serve, they can be like, oh, yeah, you know, this person. I don't enjoy this kind of person, or I don't, you know, I don't want to work with teen athletes who are, you know, looking for certain goals, there's all kinds of things they can say right away. They've had opportunities that they've either declined, or that didn't work out well.

Will:  18:28

Yeah. Okay, cool. So we're talking about identifying clients and some of the struggles that fitness instructors have and what you might do to get around that, let's talk about the second thing you talked about, which was how to charge for it, because this is something that gets instructors very tongue tied. And it's a it's a really, really difficult thing to do. Because you're putting a value on the product. And if the product is in your view yourself, you're putting a price on yourself for something that potentially a lot of instructors will give away for free, right? Like they they enjoy doing, what they're doing. So how do you get people over that hurdle and helping them to understand what their value is and how to put a price on that? Big Question. Feel free to break it down.

Kelly  19:09

Money is really really hard, especially within the fitness industry. I find that a lot of instructors and trainers especially females, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk specifically about females but this can be true for both, the prince charming money script. So the the idea that they were raised, being told that they're really just going to marry rich or that somebody else is going to take care of them and we see, I just see that over and over again. And then if you couple that with the fact that okay, maybe they did marry rich, or maybe they didn't. But I work with a lot of people who have taught for years and years and years and it was their part time job and they're making 15 to maybe 50 bucks an hour. And I know that's American. Yeah, high end is 50. And they're preparing for an hour before class, they're driving a half hour to class. So really, we're talking two or three hours worth of work at 15 to 50 bucks an hour. So take that for years on end. And then you know, couple that with the possibility that there's the prince charming or other disempowering money scripts going on, it's really, really hard to talk about money. So a lot of times, I'm talking about changing more lives in order to help people understand the possibilities. The truth of the matter in terms of pricing a program is that you've got the cost to do business. So if you were to think of this as like a thermometer, at the very bottom, you've got the cost to do business. And then in the middle, you've got the price, and that's what you're going to charge. And then at the top, you've got the value that your clients gonna get out of it. And what we see is that, at the beginning, people will just charge the price that's right above the cost of doing business. And sometimes they don't even know exactly what the cost of doing business is. So they're really charging too little. And that's why we do business, that's the margin is the difference between the cost and the price. But the truth of the matter is your customer is buying because of the value that they get out of it. So if you can charge between the the price and the value, then what you're doing is you're creating profit, and that's what we all need to be in business for is profit. If you charge just for the margin, then you really just bought yourself a job. Versus with profit, then you gave a business.

Will:  21:46

That's very true. And this is the thing that I and I say this to instructors a lot when I talk about when I talk to other people on this podcast, and when I talk to our instructors, it's that at the end of the day, as a Group Fitness Instructor, when we're talking about teaching a class in a big box gym, you are ultimately doing something that other people with full time jobs do as a hobby. And that doesn't like that's not a sort of statement good or bad. It just is a fact. And it's a fact that anyone that in this industry needs to understand and can't escape. So when you are wanting more money from that class in a gym, you're going to be competing with someone who might be just as good of you just as committed just as engaged with the class, but is happy to do it for the lower rate, because they just worked nine to five and an office job. And this is something that they look forward to all day, they teach two classes or three classes per week. And you know what, they are very happy to take that small pittance of pay and deliver a class and they enjoy it. And you if you're teaching 15 classes a week already and you don't enjoy it are always going to be at a disadvantage with this person. That is the reality of teaching Group Fitness classes, which is why if you're an instructor, you need to understand the stuff that you're talking about, which is how to package a proposition so that you can deliver more value. And that more value may include those classes. But it's probably not just going to be those classes, right? Have you seen anyone that's created a real business that's just delivering classes and nothing else? 

Kelly  23:11

You know, it's a longer term proposition. So if somebody wants to just teach monthly subscription, longer term proposition, because you've got to build a big audience for that, versus if you're doing defined end programming, you do not have to build audience first you've you've got to build an audience. But I wanted to reframe what you just said.

Will:  23:29

Please do, please do.

Kelly  23:31

So you know, what you said was so good. You said, you're competing with people who have full time jobs. And so you know, you just get devalued, devalued, devalued on every front. The people who are doing this full time or want to do this full time are also the people who are out getting a million certifications and have so much experience and education and expertise. And I want you to think about this. We are the people who are out there every day doing the one thing that in all kinds of surveys, people say they fear more than death, public speaking, your public speaking with a head mic on in a leotard huffing and puffing and sweating, giving all of your energy, you become a DJ, because you've got to pick out your music. Yeah, a health coach and a nutrition certified coach and you a CPR certified. I mean, these are all things that one person out there doesn't have any of these qualifications, you've got all of them, and you're putting your heart and soul into these classes every day. So think about that in terms of, of your worth and your value and really take a second and connect with that.

Will:  24:45

Yeah, it's the number of times that I have heard instructors talk about the fact that they're getting burned out. And what I really hear from the term burned out is I'm putting too much in and I'm getting too little back. And then there's, there's like, if you just take it as a mathematical equation, right, there's an easy answer to that, which is put a little bit less in for what you're getting back so that the balance is tipped, or figure out how to get more back for what you're putting in, which is basically what you're talking about. Right? It's understanding packaging your proposition is leveraging. Yeah, exactly. How do I create something that allows me to derive value out of it? Okay, so we're staying on charging a little bit longer. Is there anything else that you would we've talked about? How do you find your sweet spot, and I liked that you didn't give exact numbers, because the thing that people always ask me is, what should the price be? And I we get it asked in our SH1FT community? And the answer is, it depends. It depends on your specific community on the propensity of your class members to pay it depends on where you want to position yourself within the market. It's really, really hard. It takes research. But do you have the one question that we often get is, when it comes to charging, should you charge for a membership? Or should you charge pay as you go? Now, I'm guessing that given your, your motivation towards defined in programming, you're going to give me a specific answer for this, but, fire away. What's the best type of type of charging process and mechanism?

Kelly  26:12

So the truth is that I believe monthly subscription for a lot of instructors and trainers can be a good gateway. But I believe they should be looking at defined end programming, because it's more leveraged, and it's more profitable. And it's more transformative for your client. So it's better for everyone. The truth is when you can charge somebody for the value and not for the cost of doing business. You allow them to commit versus when something is cheap, and it's a low commitment on their end, it's a low commitment on their end, they're not going to change their lives. And when we're talking about the idea that you and I just talked about a little bit ago that we're reaching out to the 80%. I think we tend to charge as if we're talking to the 20%, who have an existing exercise practice in place. But think about what that's worth, to somebody who isn't working out and really wants to be somebody who works out, you spend four months with them, and you get them to a place where they can get off the couch, they can do a 5k, they can keep up with their grandkids, they can get up and down off the floor. They aren't being threatened by their kids to be put in a home like whatever. Whatever these goals are. It's not about six pack abs, it's about lifestyle, and that is worth everything.

Will:  27:29

Yeah, it's interesting, actually, I don't know if you've seen the news, but Beachbody has just rebranded themselves as BODI. So I can't remember what the new branding is. But it's essentially where it feels good or how it is to feel good. So they have now I mean, I worked for Beachbody in 2013 and 2016. And we were talking about rebranding then because obviously, the name was bringing negative connotations. But the fitness industry has definitely moved to a point where we're not really talking about aesthetic changes, we're talking about changes to health and the way you feel right.

Kelly  28:04

Oh my gosh, thank God. Yes. So when I first started doing my boot camps back in 2020, I used to bring up beach body's homepage, and I used to say, okay, look at who they're marketing to. And it was all you know, oiled up gorgeous people, and it looked really great. And I said, they are marketing to the 20% You guys, there are 80% of the people out there, you know, go out there and find them and change their lives. So that was always an illustration point for me. But it can't be any more because they've changed they're homepage.

Will:  28:33

I know, I was really annoyed. So SH1FT Fitness was always like we don't do before and afters, we're about fitness for life. And I'm like, dammit, now everyone's jumping on the bandwagon. Although, you know, overall, it's a good thing. I believe a rising tide floats all boats. So, like moving back to the so we talked about monthly subscriptions, or what you said, when you say defined end programming, is there a particular amount of time that is a sweet spot for fitness instructors when they go about creating programming? Like is there when you say defined end, is there a specific like one month, two months, three months? What's the time period that you're seeing people have most success with? 

Kelly  29:10

You know, I like for my coaches to make it long enough that they can create a real change and that they've gotten somebody out of kind of like the messy middle. So if you think about when somebody first starts a program, they are excited, it's all really new and wonderful. And then at the end, you've created a change and you feel really good about it. If you're asking somebody to like re up or join your continuity program halfway through, that's when they hate your guts.

Will:  29:41

Before you've created the positive behavioral change, but after they're really annoyed. 

Kelly  29:45

When you're having to text them at 5am and say, um, get up, we're working out and they're like, no, I hate you that you don't want to ask them to re up that day. So I feel like four to six months is kind of where, where that is. I have had people have success with eight weeks, especially when they're positioning it as more of a challenge. And this time of year, I know this is going to come out at the end of November. So it might be a little bit late. But this time of year, it's a really good time to bring somebody in and say we're going to make a transformation in December or in December and January, and then the...

Will:  30:22

Summer bodies are made in winter? No, no summer health is made in winter. I can say, I can change all of those aesthetic catchphrases to be something that's a bit more fitness for life oriented. Okay, that's interesting, because, as you were saying this, I was thinking about some of the boutiques that I have worked with in London. So I used to work for ClassPass. And so I have a lot of people in the boutique space. And they would often do shorter challenges as a means of getting people in the within become members of their gym. So think of the foundry, like my favorite gym in London, the strength conditioning gym, it's really great because it has a real viable, it's not CrossFit, it's much more team sport oriented. And there's a lot of female athletes there that come in for strength, and they do these to do strongman and now it's just called strong, but it's sort of that strongman competition, log carrying and stuff. They have a 21-day intro program, where they bring people in over those 21 days, they kind of intro them to the gym, with a view to them bringing them on to become a member. And they've recently changed their membership styles, this is perhaps relevant, that they're not just doing class memberships anymore, you have to sign up to be a semi-private personal training client. So that flywheel is 21 days to get them in the door. But then they're bringing them into a personal training program, which does have defined defined goals objectives that they work towards. So I'm surprised, not necessarily surprised. But I'm glad that asked that question, because I was thinking on the shorter end, but you're obviously definitely thinking on the longer end. And I'm assuming that's because the longer you have with someone, the more you can create a change that they actually see and feel themselves.

Kelly  31:56

But you really spoke also to the fact that people are having a lot of success with eight weeks, it's just eight weeks, you're going to be asking them to re up again, sooner rather than later. And so for, especially with instructors and trainers and coaches, in the end, they're just coming into being in business, you have so much you have to set up in the beginning, the last thing you want to do is be turning around and trying to, to re up clients eight weeks after you start your business. So for that reason, I like them, I do like intro packages, the way that I teach that for beginning business builders is doing like five day challenges, and then pitching and selling people into that longer program from there.

Will:  32:39

And I guess if you're if you're someone that isn't necessarily that comfortable selling yourself, and then if you're doing shorter programs, you're having to sell yourself and sell your product so much more often. It makes you really uncomfortable doing it once and keeping them in for a while before you have yet to convince them again, it's probably a good thing. 

Kelly  32:59

Very true. 

Will:  33:00

So I'm defined end programming that much I've got and I think you've given some like really good examples and explanations to what that would be. Next question I've got for you in terms of the sort of fitness business perspective is, is this a defined start and finish? Or is it a rolling, a rolling defined in that other people can join at varying times? Does that make sense that I asked that that as well? Are you doing challenges where everybody starts on the same date and finishes on the same date? Or are you seeing people packaging them up so everyone can start at a different time, but they're following the same process?

Kelly  33:36

I think there's room for both. I do have coaches that do it both ways, I I've, so to start out, you're most likely going to have a cohort. So you're going to have people that start on the same day and then end at the same day. And that's especially true with if you do it the way that I recommend, which is you teach it all live and put it in the video into the can as you're teaching it, rather than trying to video everything before you ever bring a customer and I don't really recommend doing that. So you've got a cohort for your first one.

Will:  34:07

That's just in terms of the amount of investment you have to do before you can actually start earning right?

Kelly  34:11

Well, yeah, and then you don't even know if you're doing what they need, because you don't have any live feedback. So I really believe in kind of planning and then pre-selling. And then you have one cohort you go through and you video everything as they go through. Then after that. I like to see people have the ability to do rolling enrollment, so they could enroll people at any time. Then they do do marketing events, like five day challenges and different things. And they still are bringing in a lot of people at once when they do these marketing events, but they've got the ability to do rolling enrollment. That way you're not dependent on a marketing event. And I'll give a good example of that. Last year in in 2021 I had all my marketing events planned out. And then in the middle of the year we had a sudden death in the family and I had to cancel a marketing event. And if I didn't have any kind of rolling enrollment, I really would have been in a bad place for the rest of the year.

Will:  35:11

Right. So in terms of sort of future proofing your own ability to keep earning, it's good to have a mixture of both. 

Kelly  35:17

Absolutely. 

Will:  35:19

Okay. So I feel like I've asked all the questions that I had in terms of the the hypothesis, which is what's the best way to package a proposition? Is there anything that you feel that you haven't touched on that you think our listeners will be will be really lucky to hear?

Kelly  35:35

No, you know, I am looking at my notes.

Will:  35:40

Go ahead. Go ahead. We don't have to do this from memory.

Kelly  35:43

Yeah, you know, I think the biggest thing is that when you think about defined end programming, you're really thinking about a result rather than about numbers or the day-to-day and that that's really cool. It's a new way to kind of look at what you do, it's a new way to look at why people would want to work with you. The other thing is that these programs are leveraged. And so it's very possible that once you get a defined and program rolling and working well, and you understand who wants to work with you, and how you're going to find them and and all of that. We're really talking about a business that you can work less on and make more money from and change more lives, which is what I hear over and over again, from instructors and trainers. They don't want to talk about money. They want to talk about impact.

Will:  36:37

Yes, as same. But unfortunately, life asks for money all the time.

Kelly  36:45

Well, and I always think that money is the thing that motivates you in your business. Yes, you changing lives motivates you. But the the money's gonna be the thing that keeps you going at first until you get those first couple of transformations.

Will:  36:59

Yeah, and the great thing about the industry that we happen to be in is if you can create a business that has money rolling in to the point that makes you comfortable with what you're getting, that you're that you're receiving the value for what the value that you're giving, then you really are, like, on a homerun there because you know that you're creating great positive change in people's lives, because that's the one thing that we can all like join hands and scream about in this industry is that even if we don't feel we're being paid enough, even if we get a little bit rundown at times, doing fitness, bringing fitness to people is something that is a net positive to the world. And we should all be kind of proud of the fact that we're doing that. So if you can focus a little bit on how you go about packaging your proposition to make sure that you're not just breaking even, but actually getting something back for the value that you're giving then plain sailing. 

Kelly  37:46

Amen, amen. 

Will:  37:49

Okay, Kelly, well, thank you so much for joining me. We will put links to your group and everything that you've learned all of your links, Instagram, etc, in the show notes so that people can find you if they want to. Anything else that you have to say before we sign off?

Kelly  38:04

Thank you so much for having me. I always enjoy talking to you. 

Will:  38:07

My pleasure. Thanks so much.  Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.