Sam:  

For me, it's all about movement more than just static stretches. Static stretches are okay, but like you said, it's that psychological thing. But just move, but yeah, just keep moving but move well, because movement itself is stretching and that's because if you're moving you're working on being stable by moving any part of your body and another part of your body has to be stable and mobile at the same time where static stretching, you haven't got to really be, ah, I'm not really working on my stability my ability to withstand any form of force.

Will:  

Hello and welcome to Group Fitness Real Talk where we talk about all the things that instructors care about in the post-pandemic world. So this is a new segment for us, which is Reality Bites and it's essentially a bite-sized podcast episode where we talk about one topic with a group fitness expert that is important to instructors. So today my Group Fitness expert is the grumpiest man in fitness, Sam Rider. Sam, how are you?

Sam  

Not bad.

Will:  

A resoundingly positive answer from Sam. Okay, so

Sam  

Just a little bit tired, just a bit. Rome decided to change your sleep pattern last night but apart from that

Will:  

Not only is Sam a creative lead for SH1FT Fitness, but he is also a newly minted fireman and newly minted father. How was Rome, he just had his first birthday no? 

Sam  

Yeah, not that he was one at the weekend, yeah. He's uh he's not walking yet, crawling everywhere but yes, he's...

Will:  

Are you upset about the fact he's not walking yet? Your future track sprinter? 

Sam  

Yeah. Like his training program is not, he's not on track with his program. Sessions aren't going that great. He'll get there. 

Will:  

He'll get there. Okay, so as this is the first time I'm going to explain the format really quickly we are going to throw a topic of concern to instructors across to the Group Fitness expert, which is today, Sam and I'm going to stick a timer on for 10 minutes. So Reality Bites means bite-sized, so Sam and I have 10 minutes to discuss this the timer will go off and then we'll have to come to our conclusion. So it's a little bit like a high school debate, I'm sure your high school debater Sam. Were you?

Sam  

If I got to school on time...

Will:  

So, I am going so our first topic is warm ups in fitness. And this applies across all of fitness. But obviously as it pertains to Instructors, PTs and classes...Warm ups, are they good? Are they bad? Should we do them? 10 minutes, starting now. So Sam, tell me what are your thoughts on warming up?

Sam  

Firstly, am I allowed to swear on this podcast? Well, every question you asked asked me today will probably result in me firstly saying, it depends. So you've already mentioned you already mentioned the fact obviously in fitness whether you're a one to one train or Group X instructor...Warm ups, for me, even if you want to look at research, whether it's specific to the task or the session you're doing, a lot of Group X formats have still been stuck in a time warp of doing very similar generic warm ups that aren't necessarily aimed towards movement patterns that you're performing in the main session. Right and the same goes for PTS, a lot of PTS will will do the same kind of thing they'll warm people up in very strange ways. There's there's still a trainer at the gym I use who starts people on the treadmill and and then goes straight into a weight session.

Will:  

Right this is this is the classic PT, right whereas that you will map on the treadmill while I have messages on my phone, and then we'll go on. 

Sam  

And then he does it because at the end as well, he gets them on the tread at the end as well. So it's not a tread, it's a skillmill because he gives him the waffle about how great skillmill in comparison to...It still it's still a treadmill. But then he's he's kind of a special case because like I thought that was a dying breed. I didn't think I'd see that ever again. And so I'm quite shocked to still see that.

Will:  

Okay. You don't like the treadmill warm up? We've got, explained to me why you don't like the...

Sam  

I don't mind. I don't mind a treadmill warm up for a treadmill session. Yeah, if it's a treadmill session. And I'm happy. Like, but yeah, like if we're, as an athlete, when I swam at a decent level, our warm up was to swim, it wasn't to do anything on the pool side or that wasn't related to swimming, you know, and the same in running. When we were going to on the track when I was competing, it was you know, we used to do a gentle warm up and then we go through drills, specific drills catered to the event that we did, whether it was a sprinter or middle distance runner, you know, the drills which would then be catered towards towards those. But yeah, then go to the other end of the spectrum where, you know, people do loads of drills in before weight session, they'll do lots of mobility drills, which some of the can be great, but then some of them, you know, are they movement patterns they're going to perform when in the session, you know, if they're doing like loads of crazy other, I don't know, shoulder drills, but it's going to be a leg session dominant, you know, is there any need for those, you know, like for me, for me, if I'm going to, if I'm going to be doing some squats in my session, and I'm going to do some bodyweight squats to warm up, I'm going to be doing some, you know, heavy pressing with dumbbells, and I'm going to do some push ups maybe tomorrow, or just some light dumbbell sets, you know, some prep sets, prep sets are great. But the same goes for Group X, you know, whatever the movements patterns are going to be, we're going to be doing barbell squats in a in a in a weighted gym program, then I'm gonna do some bodyweight squats, and so on. So just just the same movement patterns you're going to perform are going to be more appropriate, you're not going to want to do a movement pattern, you're not going to the main session and completely shut the body and potentially injure yourself as well. If you start doing crazy movement patterns in a warm up, aren't going to be hitting the main session. It's just madness.

Will:  

Okay, so the consensus that I'm hearing from you is that warm ups are important provided that you are focusing on easy movement patterns that are going to be focused on later in the workout. So you're, you're warming up the same movements that you're gonna do in the main session in the warm up by focusing on the by a de-loaded version, or a smaller version of what you're going to be doing later on. 

Sam  

Yeah, exactly. Just just a lower intensity version of what you're going to do, but that's that's the physical side of things, you know, but then obviously people talk about the mental side of things psychological. Oh, I'm doing a warm up, it's is going to prepare me for this. The session head and yeah, again, great, but there's no need to do something that doesn't match your workout or potentially injure yourself. I remember a certain program, I don't if I'm allowed to name it, but you know, an insane workout that used to have a very long warm up. 

Will:  

Alright, yeah. Before I changed it.

Sam  

That was like and the whole, you know, a warm up sure main session, compared to most programs, it was like...seriously? 

Will:  

Oh, what was the tagline? I hated that. What was it, our warm ups, your workouts. 

Sam  

Yeah. We'll send you to a physio straight after. Yeah, it was a bit much like high impact was like, from the get go as well. It's just like, no gentle ease into it. And okay, and again, you've got a look at demographics as well, like, okay, if you're gonna do a warm up, then you've got to make it inclusive. Everybody's gonna do, my classes, over the years, complete range of ages and ease, you know you just need to need to take a lot of factors into account in the warm up. 

Will:  

Okay, so next question, can you do impact in a warm up? What's your view? Yes or No? Or maybe? It depends?

Sam  

It depends. My internet connection is unstable. Yeah, it depends. Gradually, yeah, you start to do that, especially if that's going to be in your main session, if you're going to be doing really high, you know, planetary movements or ballistic movements. And yeah, you can, you can do general build up to explosive movements. If you're doing jump squats or weights then obviously do jump squats with bodyweight and so on. If you're doing like, you don't have to be at necessarily jumping to make something that plyometric you know, you could do a heel lift squat hill a great way to fire that that slight increase of explosive power which would then progress squat, but yeah, can't do them. 

Will:  

And so how long should a warm up be in your view?

Sam  

Yeah, yeah, exactly how long is a piece of string and it's hard to argue this because especially when I've got my PT head on one side and I've got my Group X head on the other side but yeah, Group X wise I'd say five minutes you know. If it's a PT session, you have to let it be a little bit more focused on that one person and 

Will:  

Well it depends on the what the PT session, like the PT session is working up to five rep max deadlifts then your session is gonna be a warm up, right? 

Sam  

Exactly. And that's that's the thing but yeah, but it was totally in Group X when you look at most formats and the intensity of most formats, yeah, five minutes will suffice and that's what most are pretty much across the board, you see them they are but then you get workouts that don't have any warm ups. And again, that's fine as long as the main session starts off at a low intensity and then progresses the next.

Will:  

I have to say, I used to be able to like walk like I used to teach at Les Mills Auckland and there was stairs up to the studio and just you know walking to the gym from the carpark and then up the stairs was a sufficient warm up that I could just jump into like a body attack class, start doing tuck jumps, no problem at all, when I was 20.

Sam  

That was gonna be my next one thought. I would rock up late training on the track and still not need a warm up, I could do the same when when teaching attack or pump, I didn't need a warm up. Because to me that wasn't, but attack and pump wouldn't have been as stressful on my body as perhaps track. I probably have more risk of injury, but coming into pump and no offense to pump and attack, but at my level at that point...

Will:  

At your level of fitness and the mobility of the joints and the stretchiness. 

Sam  

Whereas now, I'd probably need a good 10-15 minutes to warm up for that class. 

Will:  

Yeah, I find myself going to conditioning classes and being the one who's like, they're like, okay, do some push ups and I'm doing the push ups on my knees. And the instructor will come over and be like, Why are you doing on your knees, you're a fit guy. And I'm like, because I got warming up. Because my shoulders are like old and painful. And I need to gently get some fluid going into my joints before I start to push. And I find myself now in a gym class. Like when I hit the 20 minute mark in a gym class, I suddenly start to push a hell of a lot harder. But it's often takes me that long to get to a point where I feel like I can actually push intensity. 

Sam  

Yeah, I feel like I'm the old man in the class you used to get like I've turned into the old bloke in the class where they say, "I've been there, mate. Got the t shirt, I've done that. Yeah, I've been super ripped, super fit."

Will:  

Yeah. I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. 

Sam  

Yeah, I've turned into that guy. 

Will:  

That I that I measured in 1996? 

Sam  

Yeah, pretty much.

Will:  

Okay, so we've got 50 seconds on the clock. So final views on warm ups are one, good to do if you're in a gym class, sort of five minutes is about the sweet spot. And you should be focusing on movements that are going to be replicated throughout the workout that you're about to take people through. So if it's a conditioning workout, then potentially warming up with weights but doing small movements or focusing on body weights. And if it's a bodyweight HIIT workout, you should be I guess, going doing all the stuff you're gonna be doing during the class. So if you're doing burpees, you should be doing some planks to activate your shoulders and taking your bodyweight against gravity on the floor and not just jumping around and warming up the heart. Am I right?

Sam  

Yeah, and if you want to cover all bases and warm up, like like, like our programs do... and then then you then you're okay, you know, then you know if you've covered all the bases, and it's all good, but, you know, obviously.

Will:  

Well, that's literally what we're doing in SH1FT and in all of the SH1FT Fitness programs is we do, oh, there's the timer, there's the timer as we go up, down, side, side, forward, back, push, pull, twist, hinge, done. And you can apply that same formula to any type of freestyle workout that you do. Just think of all the movement patterns that you're going to do and then pick a simple, attainable warm up move for each movement pattern. Sweet, there you have it. Warm ups. Done.

Will:  

So Sam, you know the rules. We have 10 minutes, I'm going to stick the timer on I'm just going to ask you to give me all your views, good bad, otherwise, on a single topic, and today we're talking about something that I know you care about, which is stretching at the end of a workout. So that is your mastermind topic. I am going to set the clock running and you got 10 minutes to tell me do you think it's good? Do you think it's bad? How would you do it? Go.

Sam  

It depends.

Will:  

Okay, well, tell me, tell me, what does it tell me. What does it depend on?

Sam  

If you're going to be one of these science people that looks at research on before and after, the research that you're gonna find, let's look at the data, let's look at the data. Let's look at the pool of people. Let's look at the type of stretches and this is the thing that is really hard to find. And that's probably the main thing I'm going to be worried concerned about is what types of stretching we're going to do. And we can talk about the different scenarios as well. So let's look at different scenarios. Okay. A Group Fitness Instructor, there's a PT. Does a Group Fitness Instructor push the time? Is it necessary to do stretches with your group? Do they need you to coach them through stretches? I don't know. I think it should be taken off the group x format at the end of a session.

Will:  

Oh, this is this is big talk, so Sam Rider's opinion that you're hearing and right here on Group Fitness Real Talk is that stretching at the end of a group fitness format is not something that should be... So, okay, let's let's take it to the classic kind of group fitness format or freestyle class where at the end there's a song. The song's four and a half minutes long and we do a stretch to that song. Like useful? Not useful?

Sam  

Depends who's choreograph the stretch, like it most of the most of the stretch routines that I've done in classes and as a participant have been pretty pony, pretty poor.

Will:  

Well, here's the thing, right, is that like, it depends on how you're viewing them. If you're viewing them as a, a nice way to spend five minutes letting your heart rate come back down and just, you know, moving gently, that's one thing, but I guess it's whether or not you're selling them as a stretch, right? Because, okay, here's the question, does a stretch at the end of workout have a physiological benefit other than just feeling nice? If it's five minutes long, and each and each stretch lasts for 32 counts?

Sam  

Well there's gonna there's gonna be a sport scientist is going to argue with me and say, oh, yeah, it doesn't make a difference. But for me,

Sam  

It doesn't, it doesn't make a difference. Like I said, because it depends on the quality of this stretch selection. And, and I know, I don't I'm not a great fan of static stretches, obviously before workout, but remember the whole science of, should you do a static should you do stretching before and after? And then I think about 10 years ago, I don't remember the study, but it was like, well, you can you can stretch but you shouldn't do static stretches anymore. They're really bad, right? 

Will:  

Right, dynamic stretches at the start of a workout and static stretching at the end of the workout.

Sam  

And I'm like, well, why can't I do dynamic stretches at the end of the workout? I was still wasn't very conclusive to like oh, well...

Will:  

This is around the same time that burpees contra indicated and you couldn't finish couldn't do this in group fitness, you couldn't do that. 

Sam  

But also, I was really cold at the start of that workout. And now I'm really warm. So why am I not okay to do those mobility, dynamic stretches, like, yeah, it's, it's a bit... I'm not against stretching at the end of workout. Like I said, I just feel that a lot of programs out there have just pony poor like, oh, we're just doing this, I think it's more of a psychological thing for people who are like, oh I've done the workout, I'm bringing my heart rate down, you know, and I'm now relaxing, I feel so much better. 

Will:  

Which I do think has value. Like I think there's value to, if you're in a group class going, "guys stay for the stretch", then doing a like, to be honest, bullshit set of stretches that aren't going to make you more flexible, but as a nice way to as a group, like just release and feel good. So that when you exit the class, your heart rate's come down, you're feeling a bit looser, a bit more limber. It's not gonna last.

Sam  

Yeah, cuz like the physiological thing going back to it's like, when, when I've done studies, it's like, oh, has stretching at the end changed the the, when people have got bonds, and you know, those tightness that they feel after workout? Well, we've had one group they've done stretches, and that we've experienced less inflammation and pain from the group that didn't stretch and I can't see, I can't see that. Especially as, like, pain is information. But people that talk about like, ah, you know, you need to improve your flexibility to do a stretch at the end, when your muscles aren't going, I think we spoke about before, well your muscles aren't going to change length or, or they don't become more pliable for you stretching and movement is jstretching anyway.

Will:  

Let's just hold on this for a second. So you just said your muscles aren't gonna become longer through stretching? What do you mean by that? Because I think that people have a people have an assumption that, you know, if they hold a muscle in a stretched position, that they're making the muscle longer, right. And they're failing to understand kind of the sort of the neuro neuro adaptation and all that kind of thing that is related to how...

Sam  

Yea, the muscle muscles length is determined from day dot, and that's it, it's not going to become longer or shorter for you stretching, it's only going to become short if you rip it and tear it completely.

Will:  

So you have you basically have a maximum muscle length that is determined by your genetics. And then your ability to utilize that muscle link is determined by your mobility.

Sam  

No, the sensation, so, if someone goes, "oh, my hamstrings are really tight. I'm not very flexible through them", it's got nothing to do with the hamstring being tight, most of the time. Yeah, most of the time. So I'm kind of generalizing. If you're, if you're injured, that's different. If you have specific injuries being diagnosed, it's different. 

Will:  

Yeah, there's scar tissue running across the fascia. 

Sam  

Yeah, but if you if you're like generalizing, you know, Joe Bloggs comes and goes, I've got really tight hamstrings and I've always problem with me flexibility  of my hamstrings, it's like, yeah, it's not really hamstrings, it's, there's always there's always somewhere else that's not stable, or strong. And that's and that's and that's really, so it's being stable, so someone who's got tight hamstrings is probably not very stable through the pelvis and their spine.

Will:  

So they're strongly having to shock absorb for the inadequacies in the rest of the chain kinetic chain, and then it's feeling tight.

Sam  

Yeah. So, it's being stable is being strong. So being strong is been able to emit force. Being stable is being able to resist force. So if your spine and pelvis aren't able to resist force to an efficient degree, then you're going to have a knock on effect elsewhere and most likely become hypertonic. And they, they're going to have the sensation of being tight. So you're going to feel that pain because you're weak, you're weaker elsewhere, which is resulting in you thinking you're tight in certain places. And that's normally the, the reason, not always, but most. 

Will:  

Right. So if you're feeling your hamstrings a bit tight at the end of the workout, and you do that classic kind of runner's stretch where your toe comes up towards the nose, and you lean forward, that's all fine and good for providing a little bit of sensation, but it's not going to make your hamstring feel better in the long run, right, that's what I'm hearing from you. Stretching that at the end of the class is not going to help because what you really need and correct me if I'm wrong, is to do some corrective work, mobility work, postural work that is specified on what you are lacking.

Sam  

I'm not a physician, but in my experience, and with my knowledge is that it's gonna be other areas at play. But people don't want to hear that, people don't want to hear that weak, and that they've got a problem elsewhere. And they plus they want a quick fix, and they think that stretching is going to do that. But the actual thing is going to do that is probably the main session and the class itself, the movements you're doing. That's, that's what's gonna hopefully tick the boxes and the places that you're not very stable or mobile, because being mobile and stable, those two things coincide 

Will:  

Okay, so you're a person who you're an instructor, or you are a group fitness participant, let's focus on those two groups. And you're someone that does conditioning classes and classes with impact. What I'm hearing from you is that doing a little bit of dynamic stretching at the beginning, or the end, or a little bit of static, static stretching at the beginning, in the end is fine if you feel like it, but it's not actually going to help you. What should you be doing as part of your program, rather than a little stretch here and there.

Sam  

As a Group X format?

Will:  

No, as like you're a group exercise instructor or a group exercise participant, what should you be doing as part of your overall holistic program to make yourself more mobile and more stable?

Sam  

Move, just move, just move and move well, and that's the key. And that's all programs god, this is very hard to

Will:  

You've got 45 seconds, Sam.

Sam  

So moving is great. There's nothing on static stretching, there's nothing wrong with dynamic stretching. But to focus more on the static stretching, to me is, is pointless, because the static stretching element, we could argue, most static stretches aren't gonna improve most mobility as a dynamic stretch. If we're going to talk about functional. Like, in terms of, like, when I mentioned movement is stretching, stretching is movement, like muscles lengthen and shorten. So technically, they are stretching. So for me, it's all about movement, more than just static, static stretches, okay, but like you said. But just move but yeah, just keep moving, but move well, because movement itself is stretching. And that's good. And it's the movement that's going to help with the mobility side and stability side of things. Because if you're moving, you're working on being stable, by moving any part of your body, another part of your body has to be stable and mobile, mobile at the same time, whereas static stretching, you haven't got to really be, oh, I'm not really working on my stability, my ability to withstand any form of force, unless you're adding another implement of some sort. So that's why, for me, move, move well, and dynamic stretching.

Will:  

 I like that. And I think this is something that I have learned in the my 20 years in the industry is, I used to think of stretching and mobility as something that I could improve and get better at. And now I see stretching and mobility work as something that I need to work on to maintain. Because the thing is, I've only ever gotten, no matter how much I tried, like I had a year of doing yoga twice a week, didn't get any more flexible. Actually, I got better at doing yoga poses and holding them but it was more a mental thing that I could kind of push through the sensations that I was feeling. But now as I get older, my focus is on doing you know proper mobility work, which means having a session that's related to a focus of making myself mobile and stable, not on just tacking on five minutes to the start and the end of another workout. Okay, we've solved that problem. Stretching. It is good, but you need to do it properly with a focus on movement.

Will:  

Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes, wherever you get your podcasts and while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.