Dave:  

All the research shows people will still bother to do things in the real world if they can. And everything shows this. So whether it's going to the cinema, whether it's concerts, whether it's, you know, if people started doing online because the nightclubs closed, not because they preferred it.

Will:  

Hey, it's Will, and welcome to Group Fitness Real Talk. So this is a show all about being an instructor in the modern, post-pandemic world and this is my first episode for 2022. Now, I know it's almost the end of Feb, and you're probably listening to this towards the end of February at the start of March, I took a break. I didn't know that I was going to take a break. But being completely honest, because this is obviously real talk, I just got to the start of 2022. And I was bloody tired. The last two years, like I'm sure they were for you were a tiring time. So I took a bit of a break, refreshed, and now I'm back to share with you news about the fitness industry, tips about being an instructor, and general good stories about how you can make the most of your opportunities in fitness. So first up is a quick update from the last episode of 2021 even though I know that it was a couple of months ago now. So in that podcast we talked about Peloton and how they were struggling. So big news this week is that Peloton has let go of 2,800 of their corporate staff and that the CEO John Foley has stepped down. So big news if you're someone that follows fitness, more of this podcast is going to talk about why this is interesting, but it's not that relevant to the fitness instructors that will be listening to this on the ground. It's more information and news that you might be interested in understanding a little bit more about. Then there was also Beachbody. Beachbody has let go of 100 staff at their head office. So they're also struggling with keeping their customers engaged in a time when people are moving back into the real world. And the last bit of news, which is the good news because I wanted to finish on the good stuff is that Balanced, so you might have listened to the podcast with Kelly Froelich at the end of last year, Balanced the platform for older people to stay fit online, have just finished a fundraising round where they raised 6.4 million so obviously slightly smaller amounts than the money that Peloton was losing. But it's a good news story in that it shows that bringing fitness to different demographics and different types of people is still something that people are wanting to invest in and where there's real opportunity. So now that we've talked about the past, we're gonna talk a little bit about the future. And with me today, I have a really good friend of mine and one of the founders of my personal favorite gym in London, Dave Thomas from The Foundry. Dave, how are you? 

Dave  

I'm very well thank you. Well, how are you? I'm just remembering to unmute myself.

Will:  

I didn't want to have to do the classic, you're on mute, you're on mute.

Dave  

I'm just trying to give the perception of being big a professional in the real world and in in the digital world, I should say, Will, I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to help you get this...

Will:  

Funnily enough, I feel that we're moving into the time of omni channel. Omni-channels how they were talked about and retail and I think that we're now just using the same terminology. So omni-channel, hybrid, phygital, whatever you want to say, it's the future. 

Dave  

Phygital makes me feel, I feel itchy.

Will:  

I know. I don't blame you. I don't blame you. Okay, so Dave, I obviously know you very well. And anyone who is listening to this from London probably knows you too. But why don't you give the listeners a little bit of intro about who you are and what you do.

Dave  

So I have been in the fitness industry now for for about 15 years, give or take. I can't remember exactly it's all it's all getting a bit blurry back from the early days but i i started be like yourself we have like lots of people I didn't go straight into the fitness industry as you all know that wasn't really a valid career progression straight out of school or university or anything when we were younger. I should point out I am I am younger than Will. But a) I don't look it and b)I'm  devilishly handsome. But because of that I got a bit of life experience first sort of worked all over the place even in even in your motherland as well will and and then I worked in the corporate sector in events of all things in specifically in the transportation and logistics industry. They're very exciting. Sexy. It'ss that it's such a fascinating conference locations as Atlanta in the USA. So there's there's a whole world out there you don't know in transportation logistics. I thought I thought unsurprisingly, there might be something there might be something a bit bit better out there. So I remember I always say I've very few Damascus moments in my life but fitness was actually one of them I was at the central YMCA that I'm sure you know, quite well and Tottenham Court Road.

Will:  

Yeah, I'm not far from there, right. 

Dave  

Yeah. And I was training with I'd always trained that was the thing I mostly for me it was always just about sport. That was what I trained for. I genuinely didn't really I mean, you know, the aesthetic side effects of training were as important to me as any other teenage boy out there. But but it wasn't specifically what I wanted to do. I never wanted a bodybuilder or anything I just thought, right, I want to be fit and strong to be better at Rugby. That was my thing. And so I used to go to the go to the Y quite a lot with my friend, Alex Sheehan. And I just remember one day looking and there was a, there was a chap who was probably probably similar to my age now. And he, he was clearly training with someone. But he wasn't actually the only one gym buddies. He was kind of instructing someone to give him some advice. And it's absolutely fascinating because I honestly never seen this.

Will:  

You'd never encountered the concept of personal training. Honestly, never encountered.

Dave  

This is real talk. Right? I can tell you right now, I spent a good 10 years of my life growing up in Doncaster. We didn't have personal trainers, mate. 

Will:  

Okay, I think there were some on Rose place and Beverly Hills 90210 and various TV shows that I've watched, I'm sure and 

Dave  

Yeah, I think I think those are maybe pop culture knowledge moments. But yeah, this blew my mind. So I went and talked to him afterwards and found out he was a personal trainer. And I genuinely handed my notice in the next week, and signed up out the YMCA for for PT qualification. And that was it.

Will:  

And, okay, so flash forwards. Now, tell me a bit about your business now. 

Dave  

Yeah, so I mean, in the preceding years, you know, since that time I, I've set up and run I think about six gyms in total in various iterations. The, the main part of my business now in in fitness is the foundry which you alluded to earlier. So I set that up with my business partner and wonderful friend, Ben Gotting, who I know you also know very well. And that was back in 2016. And that basically grew out of a collaboration between Ben was running a private boot camp business in the mud, the rugby pitches of southwest London. And I had I've been toying with this idea, I had this a mixture of I suppose, an idea I'd been thrown around at a bit of intellectual property called City strongman which was just a, it just sounded like quite a good term. But I thought, Well, maybe if we put those together and what we did is you know, we actually built a boot camp originally which was called City Strongman, which was all about using modified strong man Strong woman training for the general population. So all that cool shit you see, in the in world strongest man at Christmas, really granny. And what we did we turn that into a Group X concept and then off that the Foundry was was was born. We now have three sites in Vauxhall Old Street and bank in the city. And the business has evolved a little bit now into we're still very much in group training. But we also specialize a little bit more in something called SPT, we abbreviated, which is basically semi-private or semi-private personal training. So the idea of you're trying to blend all those benefits of personal training. Now I know it's actually a thing that exists. You're trying to blend that with all the benefits, which you know, of Group X. Okay, so the camaraderie, the community, the challenge, the competition, all that stuff. It's trying to find that medium to it's to and it's, it's taken us few years, but I truly do believe that that is not to say it's the future of fitness, but I definitely believe it is a genuine contender product and service within the industry. 

Will:  

Yeah, I do too. And I thoroughly miss being able to go. Now that I don't live in London anymore. Okay, so Dave, I have dropped you in a little bit. I, to the listeners, I am not going to talk today about semi-private training, semi personal training, semi private personal training, or about Dave even, though I know we might talk a little bit about you. Um, I wanted to I wanted to get Dave on the podcast because we he has a wealth of knowledge on all things fitness and has a few opinions that he likes to share. But mainly because I wanted to talk about something that I've been seeing pop up in a lot of my feeds across social media and across LinkedIn, and various other places in relation to fitness, which is the metaverse of fitness and the impact of the concept of the metaverse and web three on how we are going to be provisioning fitness for customers and how instructors are going to be impacted by it, how fitness businesses are going to be impacted by and what is the reality about the the metaverse and web three for where we are right now and where we're going to be going. So Dave, how much of an expert on the metaverse are you, tell me!

Dave  

I would say legitimately I'm as much as an expert as anyone else who claims to be an expert. That would be my that would be my opinion on it. I think there's a lot of hype, there's a lot of buzz. I think it's one of these things where everybody, everybody's involved in it, everyone is saying that they're doing it, but no one can really actually tell you what it is, or who's actually going to use it. So it's funny because like, you know, when you were we were laughing about digital earlier. And you mentioned like Omni omni channel and like, you know, to my mind, the metaverse is the concept as I understand it to anyone else out there is the marriage between the physical and the digital world, however you want to kind of describe that. And I guess there's a couple of points there. Firstly, that's not new. There's nothing new about trying to use digital technology in the physical realm. 

Will:  

Do you remember that Stephen King book and movie Lormar Man? Because like in the 90s we never did anything that was in like cyberspace. 

Dave  

I tell you what I do remember about it was the virtual reality sexy, which blew my mind.

Will:  

I will put a link to man in the show notes for anyone that was born after...

Dave  

You're basically just going down scifi nostalgia. Really interesting thing is do you actually know where the term Metaverse comes from? 

Will:  

I do not tell me. 

Dave  

So my, my understanding is it comes from a novel which I did read. I was very into like dystopian sci fi stuff. There was a novel called Snow Crash. And I believe, yeah, 90 I think it was 92. You look that up for me have a look at it. I might have made that up. It was very early 90s. And that was actually one of my first experiences with the concept like virtual reality, augmented reality and so on. And what I find quite interesting is that it's a very dystopian dog eat dog, horrible concept of the metaverse. And I think it's quite interesting when you look at all the positive buzz at the moment is most of our experiences with the metaverse in popular culture are pretty negative. 

Will:  

Yeah, yeah, totally. So maybe let's let's wind back a little bit. And for anyone that's listening to this, and is thinking I don't have any idea what they're talking about. I'll give you a quick explanation from a non-expert view, which is me, of some of the terms that we're going to talk about. So the we've already talked about the metaverse, but essentially, when we talk about the metaverse, it's a little bit confusing, because the concept of it is very much like Ready Player One. It's something where you can plug into a virtual or digital environment. And you can interact with that environment. In a way that is a little bit like you know, the holodeck on Star Trek, or it is like Ready Player One where you're, you're in a suit, you've got VR goggles, but the reality is that kind of exists already. And it kind of doesn't exist because virtual reality and augmented reality are here. You can already you can already play games and interact in certain environments. But the concept of the metaverse is that all of these things talk to each other. And so you're not in a simulation or a game, you're in a space a little bit like the Internet where you can interact with companies, interact with people, interact with currencies like crypto, and actually make decisions, do things that will then impact on something sort of tangible. And we're not really there yet. There's a lot of people who are starting to step into it. But the reality is that we haven't got much further than the Oculus Rift, you know, like the Facebook VR goggles that they've bought and you play games with it. So you will have heard of the metaverse and the first thing to establish is that this is all very much still science fiction, although it does look like we are going down that road, particularly if climate change continues to happen and the world becomes less habitable and you're not allowed to travel on planes long distances, the chances of the metaverse becoming more of a thing are pretty pretty high. Then we have two other things that we'll touch on, which is web three and NF T's. And I'm sure that you've come across these if you've been looking at the Internet at all. So let's talk about web three. Now I'm paraphrasing, I'm going to put some links into some articles where I've taken this information from so I'm not the expert here. But I was very confused about what web three was, I thought it was an actual thing until I heard the person who coined the term web two explain what he meant. So essentially, you have web one. Now web one was the original Internet that Dave and I would have experienced where you dialed it up on your phone line, and heard a very 30 seconds to download. Exactly. And it was basically a set of sparse websites only for reading. You had a few thumbnails really low res. That's web one. A whole lot of websites, old school websites that if you were around in the 90s and we're getting on the internet when email was first starting up, you would have experienced this. Then we have web two. Now web two isn't actually a thing. It's just a coinage from a guy that wanted to describe how the internet had changed. And then web two was interactive, it was videos. So think YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, the place for content creators to be able to share things that they have created, the far more interactive because you can upload video or audio of yourself, and other people can experience it on the other end, as we get better bandwidth, the ability to do this on and offline increases. So that's web two. That's where we are now. And one of the criticisms of web two is that it got colonized by a whole lot of big corporations who now pretty much own the space. So this is your Googles, and your Facebook's, your Metas, I should say, the ultimate act of rebranding to get away from a brand name that has become scum. And this so web two has ultimately been colonized and coopted by a whole lot of big institutions. Now the concept of web three is using the concept of crypto and blockchain technology, which I'll talk about in a second, to get out from under the control of these big organizations and democratize democratize the internet again. So basically, it means taking them out of the equation and allowing people to interact person to person or system to system without it being mediated by the Googles, and the Facebooks. So it's cutting out the middlemen. And it uses a thing called blockchain technology. I'm going to read off something here because I want to get it right, which is cryptographic technology that allows for distributed record keeping. And it's essentially like a digital spreadsheet. So it's just keeping track of transactions in a way that allows you to verify them, and they remain visible and trusted by everybody. Last thing and then I'm going to stop talking about terminology and we'll get into how this impacts fitness. You have NFTs, Dave, do you know what an NFT is?

Dave  

Sadly, from my own experience, I do. 

Will:  

Okay, tell tell us what an NFT is and I'm gonna rate your definition.

Dave  

Okay, that's oh, you've really put me on the spot. An NFT, I know, is a non-fungible. That is. Basically, they're like unique or limited edition items, like digital versions of you know, images, videos, or tech. How's that for a definition? Bored Ape is exactly the thing that most people will have seen. 

Will:  

We will stick a link to our Bored Ape. 

Dave  

It's basically a JPEG, it's basically a JPEG of an ape. 

Will:  

Yeah. This is this is the interesting thing when you hear about because there was like Jimmy Fallon and Paris Hilton talking about their their NFTs and a lot of people are investing in them. They've gone from millions of pounds or dollars depending on where you are. And it is a non-fungible token. Fungible means interchangeable. So non fungible means non interchangeable. So when you think about something that's fungible, think about like gold ingots, or cash notes, or currency, it's something where if I put 10 pounds, or $10, into a bucket, and I pull out a different $10, it doesn't matter, because the $10 are all pretty much identical in terms of the value to a person. When you think about something that's non fungible, it will be art. So for example, the Mona Lisa, someone makes an exact replica of the Mona Lisa, that isn't the same as the original Mona Lisa, because of the value that's been ascribed to it. Now, I sometimes you wonder what makes the difference? And the answer is the difference is simply the concept of ownership. So this is the weird thing about NFTs and why when you really break it down, they are crazy, is that you can take a screenshot and if you do it in a high enough resolution way, one of those pictures so look at one of the memes that's gone for like 5 million pounds like disaster girl, you might know this one is the one where she's got like a smirk on her face. And she's in front of a burning house.

Dave  

Basically, my three year old permanently looks like that. 

Will:  

Exactly. If you have toddlers, you probably know this love very well and know this meme. So that recently went for like $6 million. I was reading an article on that this week, you could take a copy of that. And it would be for all intents and purposes exactly the same yet the NFT of that piece of internet history, the meme has been sold for $6 million. And the only thing that makes it so is the fact that there is a record that the original owner sold it. And if you think that having paying $6 million for just a statement that this is the original when the non original is exactly the same is crazy, then it kind of is.

Dave  

I've got a question for you that you actually because with your legal background, because that's an area which I don't really understand is the copyright. Yeah. It's like if you are the owner of an NFT can you actually go after somebody?

Will:  

Theoretically, yes, because it's an intellectual property and a copyright that's own now owned by you. And you can show that the author of that piece of art or whatever it is, has sold it to you. And there's a record. And so therefore, yes, and this is the thing, it's basically just establishing a kind of scarcity into a market where there was none, I'm probably losing a lot of instructors now and they're thinking what the hell is Will talking about? Essentially, when you buy an NFT, you're buying the concept of owning something. And so you've got a whole lot of rich people right now who are buying the idea that they own something, even though if you have it, it's exactly the same because you have that picture as well. So kind of crazy. But the idea is that NFTs are essentially tokens of information that describe ownership. And if you think going back to really play a one analogy of when they you know, buy a new gun or buy a new car in the metaverse, they are exchanging something, what they're exchanging is a token, which is which they have paid real currency for. And the other thing to note is that we can talk about blockchain and crypto and all this sort of stuff. But the reality is, it's all backed up with actual cash. And it's all transitioned back to an actual cash value. So all of this stuff, if you're seeing a lot of it in the media, and it's starting to creep into the way we talk about fitness in the fitness industry, for various reasons that we're going to discuss, all of this is really theoretical. And so you don't need to stress out if you don't have any engagement or involvement in what we're talking about, because no one really does right now. And that's one of the things that I have to say I want to have a little bit of a rant about with Dave is the way that I feel all of the news and all of the like big stuff that we talk about fitness in the last year has really been about things like Peloton, things like the metaverse and how that's impacting Apple fitness plus, massive news articles, a lot of talk for things that really only impact about 0.5% of exercisers in the entire world. Dave, what are your thoughts on that?

Dave  

Well, I agree. So this is a very short podcast. No, I think it's, look, it's interesting. Web 3.0 and NFTs, blockchain, all those things. They provide opportunity. And like I said to you, because I don't think the concept of integrating digital technology into the real world isn't isn't new and we see it now with wearables...I mean, it's interesting you could you mentioned like the Oculus. I mean, one of the big hurdles I see for the metaverse is actually the very, very slow uptake of virtual reality. Yeah, you know, I mean, I first remember, virtual reality headsets have been around. 

Will:  

Okay, let's jump to a real world example now. So one of the news articles in the last couple of weeks is that Les Mills has launched Body Combat in what they claim to be the metaverse, which as we've discussed, is not really the metaverse. Essentially, it is a VR version of the body combat group fitness class, using the Oculus, and it is obviously a combat punching style game, not dissimilar to a lot of a lot of stuff that exists already. There are some other big VR based slash fitness games. Dave, what are your thoughts on whether or not body combat in the metaverse is going to take over the world for instructors and participants alike?

Dave  

Well, do you remember the Wii Fit?

Will:  

You know, I do. But I hadn't thought about it for about 10 years.

Dave  

That would be, so look, and that's the thing could that could have been the next big thing. And this is what I'll say again.

Will:  

I did like the bowling game on the Wii Fit. 

Dave  

This is my point, I must have spent three or four years obsessively playing the bowling game. And during the boxing game, and whenever we'd go home with my and what was great about I thought, you know, listening to your little intro to this as well about different demographics and so on. You know, there is an accessibility point about this as as well. So, what we always found is I remember having three generations of my family all sat around at Christmas playing Wii bowling. Yeah, you know, something my granddad could do. It was something my mom or dad could do. It wasn't, you know, again, maybe boxing's a little bit more, a little bit more vigorous, but I think, you know, clearly that is an opportunity. What I would say is, you know, the difference, the main difference between Wii Fit boxing and and this is the fact you're wearing a headset, and obviously, it's an augmented reality.

Will:  

Also, what you said before, right, one of the things about the Wii Fit, which I think gets into the whole crux of this conversation, the metaverse and real life is that what you immediately locked into was the fact that it was something that augmented social connection and allowed you to engage with different demographics. And by putting on that virtual reality headset, there's kind of different, right? Right. And that's the key point. And that's going to get to the crux of my opinion on this as an issue and I'm interested to know what you think will, but that was all about, we'd had a few, a few drinks and it's Christmas, I'm older and in front of the telly, as a family laughing together, we're in the real world. Now. As soon as you go into your, here's my obvious slightly, I suppose, worry or concern about this is when you take it online. You and I have talked about this before, you know, the echo chambers. Okay. Now you and I actually, I know we have fairly similar views on on quite a lot of things in politics. We won't get into that, all the Americans listeners will think we're communists.

Dave  

Yeah, come the revolution, you and I are gonna be, everyone's gonna be listening to us, but here's a big negative with that, right, is that that's in social media already, you know. And I find that I find myself I am in an echo chamber. Yeah, it's quite hard to step outside of that. Now, if you're in a virtual reality, which is basically customized to you, and your likes and experiences, and all the rest of it, like, that's even worse. So even in the fitness space, or whatever, you're removing yourself even more from any new experiences, or diversity of opinion, or people. And you're basically consigning yourself to your own little imaginary world. Yeah. And obviously, we're talking about fitness. But that would apply to, to anything. And that's the key difference between using integrated digital tech, wearables, Wii Fit, things like that. And then this where we're actually creating a, you know, and I know it is quite easy to for people to think about it. I think you're talking about things like The Loremar Man and the matrix is probably...

Will:  

Yeah, I mean, okay, I didn't even bring up the matrix today. But it's like the classic example, the problem we run int is...

Dave  

Yeah, I'd say the matrix. Imagine imagine going into plugging into the matrix while doing the Kung Fu scene, right? 

Will:  

Yeah, I would love to be able to download a lanugage, though. I've been trying to learn French for a long time now and it's coming, really slow? 

Dave  

Well, I Imagine if you know, if Elon Musk gets his way with his neuro transplants and all the rest of it. And, you know, maybe it takes it to another level again, where you literally can go into a program and download how to benchpress and all of a sudden, you'd know how to benchpress without a train or anything. 

Will:  

Yeah, but problem is the problem is for the average fitness consumer, they had the choice between downloading how to benchpress and just downloading a good body now, but no knowledge, no, no knowledge of how to benchpress or physical health 

Dave  

Download exercise, download steroids.

Will:  

Download hot body.

Dave  

I want to say a few 100 years, someone's gonna be laughing at this podcast.

Will:  

I read a lot of science fiction actually, that's something that seems to surprise people when they hear I'm a massive sci fi nerd. And so I read about this stuff all the time. And I'm also like, like you, you were talking about novels that you read when you're a child. It's crazy how many popular culture movie references and novels inform the way that the way that technology develops? And so I have no, no, no doubt that a lot of this stuff will happen if you only need to look at plastic surgery and plastic surgery and steroids and the way they impact the fitness industry of today. I saw a really great post from Martin nutrition, who if you don't follow on Instagram, you should think about following because he tends to tell it like it is and tells the truth, saying that taking advice from people about fitness or nutrition because they look a certain way is the stupidest thing that anyone has ever done yet. I would say that 95% of people that that are not doing a fitness regime that want to get into fitness fall into that exact trap.

Dave  

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there's no debate on that is there. Aesthetic sells and aesthetic sells in fitness marketing as well. It's the hardest thing I've ever found transitioning in fitness marketing has been moving away from the before and after transformation into selling the actual benefits of the service. It's incredibly difficult because it just doesn't have that emotive,  instant. 

Will:  

Yeah, so I like I obviously worked for I worked for Beachbody, and they are they're great company that have inspired a lot of amazing fitness transformations. People criticize them for many reasons, and they certainly have their faults as a multilevel marketing company. But one of the things that was both a blessing for developing the business and bringing fitness to people but I also felt was a little bit of a curse with that business was their reliance on before and afters because I've said this before, and when I started SH1FT straight after working at Beachbody one of the first things that I decided that the business would never ever do is we would never ever, ever have a before and after in any part of our marketing unless that before and after was I was depressed that unhappy and now I'm happy or I was feeling un-energized and now I'm drenched with sweat and happy. That's the only before and after I care about and fitness because it just seems completely the wrong message. That said, I have seen the numbers of how before and afters impact sales. And that's the sad thing is that it like that's where the rubber hits the road in terms of all fitness people can have the best intention of not wanting to promote aesthetic change is the main reason for doing fitness. But it's really fucking hard to get away from it.

Dave  

Yeah, absolutely. It's very difficult. And I think because you're appealing to people's prime instincts, these things, and that's, you know, that's what sales and marketers do. And again, look that opens up a whole load of interest with, you know, with with the concept of the metaverse as well. You know, when we start I alluded to about Elon Musk, you start bringing emotional integration into these things as well, that's like it. That's just a whole other level. And I'm like you I think, you know, it's funny, we were talking earlier about the hype and is this coming and all the rest of it like, I agree, this is this stuff is coming whether it ends up being called the metaverse. Remember the information super remember information superhighway? Whappened to that? This is the thing, like whatever it ends up being called this, this stuff is already here. Like you said it. Yeah, yeah, we already have augmented reality to a degree. I do it with my daughter on on my phone I've got Yeah, exactly. There's a wicked thing where I can basically make a unicorn stand on our bed.

Will:  

This is a little bit we're like that this is I guess the concept of web one web to web three, it all makes sense. There's like three distinct stages. But the reality is that when you lived it, these things creeped in slowly. And so I think that it's, 

Dave  

I saw I saw this brilliant quote, by I'm gonna forget his name. I know, it's Gideons or something. But he was the editor of Wired, in an article, when I was reading about this stuff, and he called it a terminological land grab. So basically, it's everyone's rushing around to try and find terms. Yeah, but what's kind of covered but but without necessarily a huge amount of substance.

Will:  

Right, it's the concept of paradigm shift, right? Like, historically, yeah, there were these massive big shifts, but then when you actually lived through them, they were incremental. And everybody just kind of like made small changes to their behavior over time. Like you look at the way your smartphone now tracks your steps, and I am holding off getting it. So I want to talk to you about wearables, because I think that that's a really interesting concept of where some of the things around using data and digital actually starts to impact I am I like, the idea of wearables, I've really gone away from having a whoop or an aura ring or anything like that, because I am an anxious person. And I have had really bad sleep problems. 

Dave  

And those are no SIBO effect. 

Will:  

Yes, exactly. And I feel that if I was to start actually looking at, and I've got to a point now where I'm actually quite good with my sleep, and part of getting to that level was hypnotherapy and various things, but learning to not track it. Like to not track it.

Dave  

This is a real phenomenon. I know you love your I know you love your studies on this stuff, Will, but it is. There is a real concern out there that people are people don't have issues and anxieties about these things. And still they start tracking them. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's funny, because I, I have a whole load of stuff on there. Well, you know, a little bit my history, I only really discovered that I have, like a degree of neurodiversity, basically. So I had several very bad brain injuries playing playing rugby. And they only re they've manifested throughout my life, but only, I only really became self aware of them over the last few years, through sort of simple, you know, symptomatic presentation. And obviously, subsequent to that I've done a lot of research. I'm actually studying for a master's in psychology at the moment. So it's all very fresh in my mind. But it's really interesting, because I think, you know, there's positives to that. So for example, I needed to improve my sleep, and I needed to be aware of things and I use a wearable now to literally track one measure of my sleep, which is how long I slept. I want to know what time I went to bed, what time I got up. And that's it every because also, there's the reliability, as you know, the reliability for 99% of wearables for the rest of the day today on REM and deep sleep is worthless. So there is no there is no benefit to looking at. However, I do find because I have sort of, you know, one of the things I've, I have quite a slight, it's sort of, you know, I lean towards like ADHD symptoms, but then I have a hyper focus on certain things. My danger is a bit like you're very obsessed about things. Yeah. Like really get into and that's where I think we have to be, but I also think, you know, the neurodiversity element is quite interesting in terms of this world, and in the metaverse and fitness and all of society, but definitely in fitness. There was actually a really interesting case study I was looking at with. This is obviously more than health. But it was a case study of a neurodiverse young autistic lad who was basically having a therapy session in a virtual reality setting. And it was amazing because apparently, this child barely, couldn't really talk in the real world was really struggling to engage with the therapist, even on Zoom. Because there's a really interesting about research coming out showing that kids now also video messaging, they're associating that with negative connotations of schooling, and teachers, which is, which is their experienced over the last couple of years. So interestingly, that first step to the technology wasn't really helping, then it went into an immersive world that the kid associates with play, you know, through, because that is the demographic really we are talking about with most of this stuff, it's 18. 

Will:  

That's actually the thing I didn't say at the start of this is at you, you talked about us being the same age, but that that brings in assumptions. And that is that a lot of the things that I'm saying now about the metaverse and web three and NFTs being a long way off, I don't think for a second that these things aren't going to have a really fundamental impact on our lives in general and the fitness industry, I just think that that the age that we are at and the age that I have decided to make my focus, which is 35 plus sort of the, up to the active aging area, because I think it's an area that can have the most benefit on society in terms of helping people to not get sick, and kind of that's where I've refreshed my efforts. And that's where our SH1FT instructors, they tend to skew a little bit older, sort of average age of 42. And I'm really happy with that, because I think bringing fitness to 40 and 50 year olds is how you will help the health system and how you help people live longer and happier lives. Because it's those two decades when things go really off the rails, where if you can encourage them the good behavior, then the rest of the life is going to be so much better. 

Dave  

And that's where digital has a great impact. So my parents are an example. I got them both a little fitness tracker last year. All they do is measure their steps. 

Will:  

This is all I do, as well.

Dave  

My dad's just have major heart surgery. He was very fit and healthy before but obviously now, it's so helpful for him to actually be able to know every day he's just trying to increase his steps a little. That is his only health metric that he is tracking. And that is anything...

Will:  

 that is a fundamentally amazing health metric, if you're just incredibly your steps and improving them every day, that is probably the single biggest thing you can do to improve health.

Dave  

And the point is he's in his late 60s. He wants to do that in, in the Yorkshire Dales specifically to do that in a beautiful part of the world, in the surroundings and all that. He doesn't want to do that with an Oculus on. He never will. And the thing is unlikely as you and I probably, you know, I probably would from a play perspective. Yeah. But again, the concept, but that's probably as far as we'll go. And then it's the next generation who maybe will be looking at business. You know, the concept, to me of like the metaverse for businesses in terms of actually going to a virtual office sitting there my ridiculous avatar and I mean, if you've seen you obviously saw the Facebook, you know the...it was just, it was just hilarious. Like, I can't ever imagine wanting to be in that world.

Will:  

I was having this conversation. But the thing is, I can see absolute applications, which is, for example, going to have a say, you know, you have Babylon health or online GPs. I don't find that, like I don't find a telephone consultation with the GP to be great at all. But if you could have I could have a virtual reality, where the cameras that I'm using on one end allow me to, to show the thing that I want to see the doctor about and the doctors on the other end, like the ability to diagnose without having to travel, I can see that having massive implications or...

Dave  

Well that's convenience, isn't it? That's that's like, to me, that is why people like peloton.

Will:  

Exactly right. It's it has nothing to do with the experience being better. It's just that people are busy, and it's convenient. So I can see like having a consultation with an accountant or a doctor or a lawyer or a personal trainer. If you have everything set up at home like I can see, like incredible applications here very quickly, especially if you so you're breaking down barriers of not needing to travel and allowing you to do all the things that digital has very clearly helped with which is...

Dave  

And that comes down to accessibility as well as you know, people who are remote, you know, who have mobility impairments. Yeah, visually impaired, like there's definite applications and benefits to it. And also your I mean, it's interesting, as you mentioned medical and I think that's a good industry to look at for what it can teach us about fitness. But yeah, that moving into I suppose the web 3.0 stuff, data there is going to be key because at the moment one of my biggest frustrations as a business owner, I've been trying to look at this stuff for a couple of years and I've spoken to you about it is, everyone's wearing a million different wearables right? 

Will:  

The myzone problem, right? Like you come up with a great product but everyone's got an apple watch on then do they want too have separate things?

Dave  

And what do you know, as a coach, as an instructor? What do you do with that data, you're putting all these disparate sources, my understanding of the benefits of web 3.0 and, and I suppose NF T's to a point is your people are going to own that data. And they can choose to sell it to Under Armour, or they can choose to keep themselves or they can give it to doctors, or, and I think that's a great thing, you know, so it's. I mean, don't be wrong, when I'm doing my facebook marketing, you know, all this, like push against all are very invasive data grab, it's actually quite difficult. It's much harder to advertise now online. 

Will:  

Oh yeah we didn't even talk about the fact that Meta by Facebook had something like 568 billion wiped off its market capitalization in the last week thanks to Apple's privacy. I

Dave  

 was gonna Yeah, I was gonna say, privacy. I mean, yeah, absolutely. And I think that is a fast, you know, it's also let's, let's be realistic, and maybe slightly cynical about this, as well. All this stuff is coming out at the time of recording. This is a time when Facebook is really under the pump, and it's really convenient that they're coming up with a whole new concept and rebrand, which you alluded to earlier, you know. But then also, you know, let's look at the instructors or the people who listened to you, we will unfollow on this stuff there is there's an interesting thing on the NFT. And I suppose, the IPO side of being an instructor, right, because, and this has happened to me, and I'm sure it might have happened to you, but definitely happening to people listening. I mean, I've had tons of workout programs stolen over the years where I shared with someone and someone's just literally like, literally cut and pasted or copy and they just whacked the thing on, you know what the new logo and sometimes they haven't even done that sometimes they just forgot to and shared it with my name on it. But what what I think's really interesting about that is like, that's an that's an area of application, I could see, where you could start to own your brand a little bit better, you could have it, you know, it's just interesting an NFT on an exercise program, what do you think about that, like, you know...

Will:  

I guess it's, what's the benefit, right? It's like, like, for example, you can you can pay for your streaming services, or you can like, pirate your streaming services. And the reality is, there's lots of websites out there, right. And having worked on intellectual property, and being a lawyer and having worked for places like ITV and Channel Five, where I understood the value of IP, I tend to avoid the like the temptation to pirate because I'm aware that if we don't give value to the people that create products that valuable that they won't create them anymore. So I understand that from a kind of commercial perspective. However, like, as people, I see younger people coming up and into using digital forms of content consumption, and they just don't really see it as a problem, because they've always done it. And so, like I 

Dave  

You said, that was the that was the big downside of web 2.0. Yeah, in that sense that that was absent. And so I suppose it's just trying to see is, is that a potential benefit of, of the next iteration? 

Will:  

Yeah, being able to sort of lock up your property. So this is the thing right at the moment, NFTs is, you have two identical pictures, but you paid a million for that one, and this one's worth nothing. And it's all theoretical. But you know, as technology increases, there may be some way to encode or to delineate the difference between the two. Yeah, it's interesting, I hadn't even thought about that, that I hadn't even thought about NFTs in relation to programs. 

Dave  

I was scratching my head, you know, trying to trying to think of actual practical applications of this stuff in the fitness niche. And that's, you know, I suppose the big thing is that sort of move to earn, I suppose. So, you know, the idea that you could have tokens that can be used, you know, within online, fitness apps, or with your favorite instructor, or you know, and that's, again, we see that already the gamification of fitness, you mentioned myzone, there's, you know.

Will:  

Yeah, so let's, let's wind this back to a little more like real world application. So we've talked a little bit about wearables. What are you so when we talk about gamification, we're talking about encouraging people to have some form of either competitive element or reward system built into the thing that they're doing. And this is obviously really easily done when you have wearables or fitness trackers, or the ability to plug in your data. So you can think of gamification as little as you know, a your gym, making sure that you're you attend five times a month and if you attend five times in a month, you get a free smoothie at the smoothie bar, for example. What are your thoughts on gamification and how they're impacting the industry?

Dave  

I generally think it's a very positive thing. I've only really seen, that's not true. I have seen some negatives. The negatives are when it becomes overly competitive. So take a and I feel bad picking on myzone, but I suppose it's one of the issues they were sort of at the forefront of the industry and so they're the easy ones to sort of highlight but you know, we we are the foundry we've run loads of myzone challenges over the years. So if you're not familiar with that, effectively, you're earning points for exercise intensity, the exercise map specifically, which is a sort of proprietary algorithm for how much work you've done. And the problem you have with it, if you're not careful with how you structure these competitions, you can just have people thrashing themselves to win with but there's a there's an argument there, obviously, from an instructor perspective, what value there is actually to the client for them doing that or are you somehow complicit in encouraging people, you know, to basically put themselves in a hole.

Will:  

This is not related to wearables data, but the I think the the most egregious version of gamification that I've seen is from one of the most famous boutiques in the world, which is Barry's, which is Barry's Hell Week.

Dave  

I didn't want to pick on them, I didn't want to pick, because I'm scared, I'm not lying to you mate.

Will:  

No, let's pick on them because I get really pissed off because Barry's consistently says it's the best workout in the world, and I don't think it is for many, many reasons. 

Dave  

Yeah. And so this is the thing like, to me, that's an egregious use of I really don't like hell week and concept. 

Will:  

It's just terrible for you, right? Like I have my for you. I have issues. I'm jumping in because I'm sorry, I care so much. I have issues with cross like CrossFit, I think can also be quite bad in terms of driving people to compete. But ultimately, if you're doing CrossFit safely, it's fine. Like, there's that whole Rhabdo controversy that, like, I can link to an article on this, but you know, doesn't seem to come up anymore. 

Dave  

But especially, like, in diet with like, you know, the biggest loser-esque concepts. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's a motivation element. But there's also there is a, you know, a potential danger to it. 

Will:  

So for people that don't know what Barry's Hell Week is, Barry's boot camp is a very, very famous worldwide boutique chain, and they specialize in a type of class, which is using the treadmill and using the floor. It's a modality that I'm that I use occasionally. As I get older, I realize that sprinting on a treadmill is just terrible for my back, a lot of people really like it. And my my, I can have a separate podcast on sort of boot treadmill boot camps as they relate to fitness. But ultimately, I just think that the perception of how hard it is, is because it's really hard on your body. And it's not correlated to how healthy it makes you feel. And the concept of Barry's Hell Week is that for seven days, you do one of these classes that is pretty hard on your body every single day. So violates all the principles of training that...

Dave  

And it's specifically aimed at as an introductory, exactly. If you're aiming at beginners.

Will:  

F45 does a version of this, too, but it's not quite as bad as Hell Week, which is sprint on a treadmill and do weights with no recovery days for a week, and specifically do it like in January when you're particularly deconditioned. It's just the absolute antithesis of being good, good, a good fitness instructor or good fitness contributor. 

Dave  

And I hope you don't mind if I use a personal example there busy...But we we run a 21 day challenge, which is the same kind of concept, an introductory thing, and I'm gonna get this real talk right? But I call it a challenge, because it's better for marketing. People appeal to it more. And I've tested it, I've done a lot of A B testing on it. We used to call it a 21 day trial. And we've got far less people signing up to it, we call it a challenge. This is the whole before and after problem, right? We're very, very careful. Exactly. But and this is this is a little you know, you could say that's just a little marketing trick. But I'm very careful inside to be very clear about and describe what it is. And in that we make sure the content, everybody gets it an assessment before we do anything, because how the hell can you let someone sprint on the treadmill if you even if you don't even know how they work. And you know, that's a big thing about the person personalization, which is definitely coming with all of this. But we do that, then they have structured sessions and we limit the amount they can train no matter how you know, even if they're more experienced, a little bit more advanced, you absolutely do not train every day, we monitor it through you for 21 days. And you will see progress, you will get gains, you'll you'll get all the benefits of it. But you what you won't do is end up in a hole. Loads of companies use these challenges and trials and things like that. So we're not alone in that. But what but like but what I was trying to say is despite all of that thought and attention that we put into that we have still fell foul to the negative sides of gamification with things like challenges, because I have seen people in fact, I'm definitely not gonna name them but there was I just remember one of the first ones we ever ran and there was two people competing up at the top and it got to the stage they were both doing like stair sprints at midnight, the day of the challenge to try and win, like there's no it was funny and do you know what happened after that and it is absolutely true, I know at least one of those individuals that didn't come to the gym for nearly two weeks because he was broken. And who did that help? 

Will:  

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Competition is is really great. But competition...

Dave  

...but without beat you know what without pushing yourself to your limit without competition you're not gonna win the Olympics either. So there is quite well, taking people out of that comfort zone, right?

Will:  

But there's also a reason that elite athletes get to a certain point in their career where they're like F this I'm done. And it's often because like that, that constant pushing of the body like you speak to most, like you let read autobiographies or biographies or, you know, listen to podcasts where athletes talk about their athletic journey. And often after they've retired, they'll they'll talk about having a massive break from the sport because they were just so sick of it after pushing themselves and then after a few years, they kind of get back into it, but in a more...Okay, so like to bring us back to to the topic of what we're talking about, which was the metaverse and web three, we obviously are in a meandering conversation. But this is fine, because it's all about getting a wide and diverse opinion spectrum of like, word salad now. So what I think we got off on this train talking about the Les Mills Body Combat Oculus game. And so I'm gonna finish up on that by saying that it is a very good example of most of the talk about the metaverse web three NFTs as they relate to fitness, which is it's all about grabbing headlines, and not about what is actually going to happen. And this is not a criticism of Les Mills, because I saw this across a lot of different types of media on LinkedIn being reported. So they achieved what their goal was. And their goal was to create something that stirred up a little bit of attention. But the reality is that if there are you know, a million people doing body combat, in any one month, there's going to be about 17 people doing this body combat Oculus game in comparison, and but it gets headlines, which is kind of the the ultimate point that I guess I wanted to come to in chatting with you today, Dave is that my personal view on all of this stuff is that it is coming. And it's something that we need to be considerate of because it will start to impact little things that we are doing right now. But most of this stuff is pure headline. And if you're someone that's in the trenches of fitness, it's not something that you need to be worried about.

Dave  

Yeah, I think that's I think that's a really good summary. Are you familiar with the the UK boutique brand Tribe? 

Will:  

I am and who just who just managed to get a new investor from Peloton. 

Dave  

Yeah, but interestingly, they were doubling this. I don't know if you've seen this, they've launched a virtual gym and retail space. 

Will:  

I did. And I have exactly the same thought, which is this is a great news story that got picked up by that was my only 

Dave  

I'm only aware of that, because it was all over my linkedin. What an interesting space to watch. 

Will:  

And if you know anything about tribe, you know that they are a franchise business. And they're trying to sell the concept of tribe to franchisees. And so having something that is in the headlines is exceptionally good for selling more franchises. All power to you. 

Dave  

And actually down the line. You know, I think actually, you've just raised an interesting point, because franchising could be an interesting application of this stuff down the line, actually. But it was just it's another good example. There's a lot of noise about it. I think there are really good brands, and I thought that was interesting, but I couldn't be I'm very sure they're not taking their eye off their physical community, and absolutely not the and I know you love your your stats and your research on this. And one of the big things I've done of the last couple of years with, with the COVID pandemic will as you know, because we work together on, I picked your opinion a lot on virtual I, for people who don't know, the Foundry, we had to launch an entire virtual platform to survive during that period from scratch and I had very little experience in but one of the things I've learned from that is all the research shows people will still rather do things in the real world if they can, and everything shows this. So whether it's going to the cinema, whether it's concerts, whether it's you know, if people started doing online race because the nightclubs closed not because they preferred it. There are examples of convenience. So like we mentioned peloton, my wife uses peloton because she is now doing more hybrid working and it is there literally next year, she doesn't want to have to go all the way to use a studio because she's not she would have to travel specifically for that. So there's the question of convenience. People do still want and prefer the real world application. So like you said, you know, there is a longer term question with future pandemics with climate change and things like that we should not be you know, we shouldn't just bury our head in the sand, there is probably going to be, you know, another fascinating application I saw was people using it for educational travel. So you know, rather than doing a school trip all the way I basically go to The Louvre in virtual Yeah. 

Will:  

Yeah, I can see so many applications for I just see it replacing a lot of things before replaces fitness. And I think that we absolutely, we only need to look at kind of the effects of the pandemic, right. And if you've been listening to this podcast, or you've been a participant in the fitness industry, you're gonna know this, it was all about digital, it was all about hybrid. And as we're seeing as gyms open back up, people are coming back in, because at the end of the day, digital class, in by yourself, even if you've got a mate at home is not the same as going into a real class for a number of reasons. It just isn't as enjoyable. It's not as experiential, you don't necessarily have the same access to equipment, you don't get all of the social aspects. Like there's, there's just so many things. However, if you just wanted a workout that day, and you don't really care about all of those extra things, but you want to get in 30 or 45 minutes, then you're going to do it at home, because that fits in for the convenience aspect for the accessibility access aspect. And so I think that at the moment, all of this talk about the metaverse is exactly the same people might dabble in it, but it's not going to replace the things that they love about Real Life Fitness. 

Dave  

Absolutely not. And the other thing we should mention for all the all the instructors listening who ultimately want to know about their how this is gonna affect them commercially. Yeah, no, no, this is a really good point, which is like, ultimately, none of this is worth anything unless you have a community. Because if you look at the people who are, you know, look at the sport, the sports men and women who are getting involved in NFTs and so on. Now, they've already got a brand. They've already got followers they've already got so you can dabble in that stuff. I think there will absolutely be far more companies alongside Nike, Peloton, and Apple who were who were looking into this space in in fitness, and they'll be individuals. You know, I'm sure Joe Wicks has already got his team working on...I'm sure there are middle aged women everywhere who would love to join him actually join him in his house to excercise through their virtual reality headsets. But the thing is, none of that matters. If you haven't got a community to begin with. Yeah. And you're not going to be able to just go into the metaverse. It's not about you can't just like go into the metaverse and build a fitness community and make something happen. Okay. So I think that's really important. First of all, you need to be working on your fundamentals. You need to be working on your skill set, your personal skills, you need to be building your network, you need to be doing all those things, regardless of what's coming down, regardless of it's five years, 10 years or 100 years. Yeah. And community will always be key. That will be that will be the thing that whether it's a gym company, whether it's an individual...I listened to your podcast all the way through will and that was what was so interesting and exciting for people during pandemic as well was that, you know, the big brands who just suddenly tried to create a virtual community struggled. Okay, because they were suddenly reaching out who maybe didn't know them, you know, who didn't come to... They didn't know us. And they had to learn us all over again. We're a London based business. And that's the same for the instructors. 

Will:  

Well, this is the reason that Beachbody and Peloton have struggled because it's it's it is just not that easy to acquire new digital customers. And these are both businesses that are based and that are based in digital to begin with. So that has always been their business model. But I think that what a lot of a lot of gyms and boutiques that dabbled in digital realized is that it's you can bring them you can bring them in, but you don't get that same stickability, like the retention aspect is a lot more difficult because it's if you're just interacting with something through a screen, it's really easy to just cancel that subscription. And to get another one.

Dave  

I think down the line, there is an argument for the metaverse in retention, creating a community and an experience and so on. But we're a long way away from that. Yeah, the easiest way you could do that whether you're running a boot camp in the park, whether you're based out of your local gym, whatever it is, is to absolutely focus on that community. Obviously, people want results. That's why they'll come to you, but they'll stay for the community. 

Will:  

Yeah, I agree with you there, and the community that you build, both in person and online. Because I think the important thing to note, if there's one takeaway, it's that that whole web one, web two, web three, they sound really different when you break them up into three different kinds of types of internet, but the reality is, that took 20 years and we've all lived through it. And so get think of like your Facebook group that you might currently use is just the first step of the metaverse and that if you're posting videos on there, if you're having almost real time conversations, if you're doing a Facebook Live, that's the initial few steps...

Dave  

If you've got a little step competition going on, exactly. Then you bring in wearable tech into it. 

Will:  

Yeah. And I feel like if if you're an instructor listening to this, and I know there are many people who are and you are using a Facebook group to interact, you are sometimes doing lives, you're occasionally running challenges. You're already doing some of the elements that the metaverse is you're already introducing gamification to your community. It's just that you may hear these terms and think, oh shit, am I doing that? I don't know how to do it. The reality is you're probably doing it already.

Dave  

Absolutely. Don't think that you if you if you're currently running like, you know, little social meetups with your fitness community and up for a coffee, don't think you'd now have to do that online instead, because people would still rather sit down and have a coffee. 

Will:  

Yeah, as opposed to an NFT of a cappuccino.

Dave  

With your virtual avatars, sitting around a virtual cup of cup of coffee.

Will:  

Okay, Dave, so tell me what like you mentioned before that you're doing study, what what's up for you in 2022? What are your what are your goals in the fitness world and outside of it?

Dave  

Yeah, so with the fitness world, we are continuing to look to expand The Foundry. We were I'm not gonna say we were lucky I do you believe a huge amount of success is about luck. And I think I've experienced a lot of luck in my personal journey on in the Foundry but... 

Will:  

I was reading I was reading in Ursa, sorry to jump in, but they, I think they the stats so that you know, 35% of fitness businesses in the USA have closed. And some of them may have reopened, but a lot of them have closed for good. And in the UK, it's been bad too. There was actually an article yesterday that you and I were discussing before we got on the podcast, which was the dig me, which is one of the largest boutiques in the London region is potentially going out of business, they're doing a, going into compromise with their creditors to try and stay afloat. Which is, it's pretty sad, right? If you so if you're a fitness business of any shape, or form listening to this, and you have made it through, give yourself a pat on the back, because it's not been easy.

Dave  

It hasn't, no, and that was my point. I genuinely, it's the hardest I've ever worked the last couple of years. And I suppose what's always quite difficult about that is it's the hardest I've ever worked. And all we were doing was treading water. Right? It was literally to survive. But we have survived. And now because of that we on a selfish level, we are now going into an industry which is less saturated and has plenty of opportunities. However, I do, my heart genuinely goes out, they're not the only ones that sweat it as well. Yeah, I've got a lot of friends and I do genuinely feel for all of those coming because they didn't do anything wrong. And I've been there myself, like, I had to close my first gym business down for literally because the landlord quadrupled our rent. There was no, I didn't do anything wrong. I had a really successful, profitable business. Yeah, sometimes stuff's going to happen. And, you know, you can learn a huge amount from that. So um, you know, personally because of that, I've also diversified, that's, that's another buzzword for you. So, I'm actually I'm actually a first generation farmer now. I have a farm up in the Yorkshire Dales. And a lot of these decisions are about, you know, personal, I suppose work life balance, I think I think COVID for everybody and if you are also an instructor, again, I want to bring this back to everyone listening isn't about me, no one cares about me. But...

Will:  

I care about you Dave.

Dave  

I made the decision...Well, I care about you very much. But if you've been through this period, and you've also made some big life changes, and you've decided, you know, maybe that fitness was full time, and now you've had to take something else on or you've had to, again, don't don't beat yourself up about that. Oh, yeah, I realized all this introspection, but actually, I, one of the big passions for me fitness, I was actually spending very little time doing fitness running a fitness business. 

Will:  

I, like I have said this on this podcast many times. And I know that for some people out there fitness as a full time job. I think that if you're doing that, great, but I think you're doing it tough. For me, I have always been happiest with fitness when it was a part time job. And even now, I'm putting my money where my mouth is I have started doing legal contract work again. And it makes me enjoy the fitness stuff I do so much more.

Dave  

Exactly, I really enjoy enjoying my own personal training for the first time ever. I got really back into running like properly for the first time in genuinely nearly 20 years. And and all of that has come from just that, you know that it's not the time and space during COVID. But I think just being forced to really evaluate things to look at it. So, you know, that whole experience has provided loads of opportunities for everybody, including myself. And it's also provided a lot of challenges. And I think, you know, a bit of a reset. Yeah, for people is no bad thing. 

Will:  

I agree. And I know from personal experience with our instructor community that you know, there are a few people that have chosen to give it up during that period and that have exited the industry. So if you're listening to this and you're still in it, well done for making it through and excited. I am super excited because, touch wood, New Zealand's borders are opening, pandemic restrictions seem to be pulling back, we're going into northern hemisphere summer. So when I, when we say post pandemic industry, I have, I have quite a lot of hope and confidence that that might actually be true. And if that's the case, that means we get to get back to building and we can stop treading water, and we can stop worrying about the rug being pulled from under us. And just think about how we can go about effecting change and being happy in what we're doing moving forward.

Dave  

And that's the thing, and I think you have to be realistic on it, there are maybe going to be things that have changed in the world, I do think there's permanent changes, like you said, with hybrid, let's use that word. And also, the other thing is that, you know, so even our business, we're very central London based, and I don't think everybody will be back in the office forever. I don't think that is, I mean,

Will:  

Part time work is obviously, yeah, I mean, people are going to be to be in offices less.

Dave  

Absolutely. And you need to think about that as an instructor or as a, you know, so if your gym is still really, really quiet where you are, then, you know, maybe do need to think about that maybe other opportunities. Can you get closer to where people live? Can you provide more convenience, because I can tell you right now the gym companies are thinking about because I'm thinking about that? Yeah, yeah.

Will:  

Yeah. If your instructor or seeing and you teach at a gym and you're seeing those classes really quiet, but you live in a populated area, there, maybe you should be hiring a hall in that area and putting on some classes. 

Dave  

Absolutely. And I, I've always a big believer that the two things: you need a convenience and community and I know convenience sounds really...It sounds so overly commercial, that that's all that matters. But it does matter. People are very busy. And they have a lot less time. And if you can solve someone solution and also make it fun. So if you can get someone results in a convenient way, and they enjoy it, then you have the recipe for success. 

Will:  

Yep, absolutely. Right. I think that is a perfect note to end on. So Dave, thank you very much for joining me on Group Fitness Real Talk. I'm sure that we will chat again. Best of luck with your study. And if anybody has any topics or ideas that they would love to hear me and my guests rant about in the future, please do send them in. 

Dave  

I want to hear more about the bootcamp treadmill classes.

Will:  

Oh, I'll have to do an episode on why I hate, hate, hate treadmill bootcamps. 

Dave  

Thank you so much for having me. I love you, man.

Will:  

Cool, see you later! Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.