Babak:  

So I guess for us, it was also like, there was a big crash associated with pre-workouts in the past that you take it and then you're like, you're up and you're going, you know, you can smash the workout for an hour, but then afterwards, you're left on the couch, and you can't even kind of go do anything. So for us, it was about how do we create something that's as much cognitive as it is physical, it has the physical aspect, but it's still cognitive. But then also something that I'm gonna be able to take in morning, and then I'm gonna be able to go ahead and smash a day at work as well, as opposed to it being like, you know, that's the end of it. So, and I think that's, that's probably the future where you know that this kind of supplementation is going.

Will:  

Hey, I'm Will Brereton, founder of SH1FT Fitness and this is Group Fitness Real Talk, a show about how to survive and even thrive in group fitness in 2021, and beyond. If you're anything like me, you've probably tried a number of different products and supplements over the years to help you deliver the best possible class. Could be pre workouts, a certain amount of protein within a particular window after exercise, a bit of caffeine, or maybe just some sugar right before you jump up on the stage. My guest this week is Babak Brazell, the founder of Level Out, which is a nootropics company with a particular focus on the fitness industry. Now, if you're wondering what nootropics are, then keep listening. It's essentially a cover all term for supplements designed to improve brain function. And as you'll hear, they're becoming more and more popular with everyone from high performance athletes to Silicon Valley CEOs. If you're the type of instructor that's interested in optimal physical and mental performance, then this episode is for you. So Babak, welcome to the podcast. How are you today? 

Babak  

Very well. Thanks for having me. 

Will:  

My pleasure. And you are calling in from London at the moment?

Babak  

Yeah, London, UK. Absolutely.

Will:  

Very nice. Okay, so the reason I wanted to get you on the podcast is that you have started the business in nootropics, which we're going to get into if anyone's listening and has no idea what we're talking about. Don't worry, we're going to delve into it. And it's a type of product that I've been seeing coming into the fitness industry more and more. So I thought, I'm interested in it. And I have a podcast. So I'm going to talk about things that I'm interested in, because I think that other fitness people might be too. And you're a bit of an expert on the topic, because obviously you've just started a company that specializes in this. So why don't you introduce yourself to the listeners and tell us a little bit about a little bit about you and a little bit about level out? And then we'll get into the deeper darker science of nootropics.

Babak  

Yeah, absolutely happy to. Yeah, so I'm Babak Brazell, I'm the co founder of level out. level out is a CBD and nootropics company for active people. So we make, you know, products specifically designed to improve people's exercise experience. Basically, we've now been in the market for around six to nine months. But we've been around as a company for best part of two years now developing the products and all that kind of stuff before we went live. Right now we just have two products, one we call focus and when we call reset. So focus is a kind of pre-workout product, although we hate the word pre-workout. And and reset is the CBD or physical recovery

Will:  

Sweet. So for everybody listening, I have tried both of these products. And I really liked it, which is one of the reasons that I wanted to get Babak on the show, because I wouldn't want to talk about anything that I didn't think was actually really, really good. But before we talk about the two specific products that I have tried that you've been making, I would like to talk about what nootropics are, because before I came across your brand, I didn't actually know what they were I had a little bit of research, I kind of knew about it in a vague sense, but maybe you as the expert can tell us what nootropics and why are they something that's creeping into the fitness industry and general performance?

Babak  

For sure. I can go on about this for a while. Yeah. Sure. Well, I think if you ask for the kind of technical term of what a nootropic is, it's a class of substance that that kind of boosts brain performance. Right. So that's that that's the official definition. And the most obvious nootropic that everyone's heard of is caffeine. And I like to talk about caffeine as a good example, because it provides both the good things about the tropics, and also some of the questions and like why people don't trust it and all that kind of stuff, right? Because caffeine, obviously everyone has caffeine, it's in coffee, you know, for a lot of people. It's great gives you a bit of boost, all this kind of stuff. I can't get out of bed without my caffeine in the morning. But also, for some people, it doesn't affect you at all. And then you can drink four or five cups of coffee a day and it doesn't really have a great impact and actually...

Will:  

I actually fall into that category. Yeah, I did a DNA test once actually back with DNA testing was the new big thing. And I was very non-sensitive to caffeine.

Babak  

Yeah, right. Right. Right. For some people, it's a very small portion, but some people actually makes them sleepy as well. Yeah. Because...

Will:  

Caffeine makes people sleepy?

Babak  

 Yeah, there are a small portion of people that would that caffeine will make them sleepy. So I think even with that thing that people kind of think they know loads about caffeine is obviously to learn this and all this kind of stuff. Like you have this challenge in the industry, which is like there is no one size fits all for absolutely everyone. But certainly nootropics I think that I think, are great for some people. And if you get the right ones can really can really boosts your experience of certain things and can improve your focus and help you sleep better and provide a kind of support for a lot of different events in your life.

Will:  

It's funny, right? Because I wouldn't I think of caffeine as a daily ritual rather than a performance enhancing substance. But there's like study after study shows the impact that caffeine has right, like it like helps with alertness and digestion and metabolism and all manner of things.

Yeah, like you have, like an element of caffeine before you before you exercise, it starts to increase your, increase your heart rate, blood pressure, and it actually has been shown to have a really beneficial effect. As a complete side note, and this I don't know how much of interest this is to your audience. But you know, as part of our working at level out we have discussions with quite a few agents just kind of on the influencer ambassador side. And one thing that that has been outlawed at the highest levels of the game is is like people taking really strong caffeine shots before games. A lot of pro footballers were having massive like increases in their performance, basically, just by having these shots before and they out, they outlawed them because of that reason, because the performance was so much better when people were taking them. So I use caffeine as the obvious example just to give you a demonstration, but you know what we're trying to do at level out. And I think what people are now kind of discovering across the industry is that there is a whole cocktail of things that you can kind of pull together to make you feel better and do better.

Will:  

It's interesting. I, I was at the supermarket recently in the UK. So for listeners, not in the UK, I'm going to use some UK references, but I was at Tesco, and I was buying like some groceries and someone had asked me to get them a Red Bull. And I had to I didn't know why they weren't selling me and the person had to come over and do an age verification. And then I realized that you're not allowed to buy red bull in the UK without being more over 18 now.

Babak  

Wow, I didn't even know that. Yeah.

Will:  

Because I was I was very annoyed, because I was running late. And I was in a rush and I was waiting and I'm like, why did, I'm not buying any wine or anything. They were like, yeah, it's the red bull.

Babak  

Interesting.

Will:  

Yeah. So, um, okay, so caffeine is the obvious example. But like, what are some of the other nootropics that are on Vogue or that people are using or that are starting to creep their way into things like sports and performance and lifestyle and fitness?

Babak  

Well, I mean, obviously, I'm going to talk about the ones that we use to start with so I mean, I think another great example is is CBD so obviously there's there's kind of a wide range of use cases that people have for CBD.

Will:  

Okay, wait. So when you say, like let's break this down, because obviously, in the US parts of the US, you have, like marijuana, which is legalized and then you have criminalized or like various different states of regulation around the world. But can you break it down and tell the listeners sort of what is CBD and how does that relate to the plant that creates marijuana and the various components of it? 

Babak  

Yeah, for sure. So the hemp plant is kind of the mother of a lot of different substances called cannabinoids. There are many different types of you can have CBD, which is the one that we're talking about today. Or you know, the one that we sell and is legalized in a lot of places, UK, EU, etc. There's also a whole catalogue of substances that sit under that like CBG as as the most popular second one. But again, that's much smaller.

Will:  

What was that sorry? 

Babak  

like CBG, which is a kind of sister to the CBD.

Will:  

I have never heard of that.

Babak  

There's all these other ones. I can come on to it in a moment, but there's a powerful entourage effect that you're able to get by combining a lot of cannabinoids together. But I think the most important distinction is between THC, which is also part of the hemp plant, but that's the one that gets the proper psychoactive effects. So that's the one that makes you feel high. Whereas CBD gives a lot of the kind of other effects but won't have the same kind of psychoactive elements to it, if that makes sense.

Will:  

It does. Okay, so there's interestingly I spoke on a panel was a couple of years ago, and it was when I was working class pass, and there were two other people on the panel. It was kind of a lifestyle, a lifestyle seminar. And the two people on the panel were the were a person that ran a CBD drinks company and a guy who had started a blood, a blood measurement and diagnosis company, it was called thriver where you like prick your finger and you'd see that way and you get diagnosis. And the general consensus was that CBD and personalized like blood biometrics and testing, were two of the things that were really, really going to accelerate in the next couple of years. And I think that that's definitely been proven out by the number of different products that you see hitting the stands at any kind of Holland and Barrett's or...

Babak  

Yes, it's wild, isn't it? It's absolutely wild. And I think that's one of the that's also one of the things that makes CBD quite difficult to communicate about because you know, that there aren't that many products on the market that I could talk about that you could take as a topical, like a skincare cream or a muscle bomb, you know, you can take it in a drink, although there are some some challenges around that. But then, you know, also you can take it in an oil and drop it under your tongue as well. So I mean, I think it's, I think it can be quite a confusing area. And also candidly, I mean, I think we take the CBD market five years ago, then, you know, the whole reputation, there's a lot of kind of chat and about how it doesn't do anything and all this kind of stuff. But then they were taking a lot of CBD products off the shelves. And because it was unregulated, there wasn't 0% CBD in those products, it was basically just peddling oil. And I think, you know, regulation has still been quite a long way behind. But I think the industry to some extent self regulated, because now anyone who kind of things about CBD would rarely buy it, you know, without a kind of lab test to back up exactly what's in the product. So it's quite interesting how it's developed over that period. But yeah, I mean, I think that the benefits of becoming clearer and clearer for people over time, but it's just a question of the industry kind of catching up.

Will:  

Holding on that for a second what like, what are the benefits of CBD? Like some people listening I'm sure will already know this, because they've tried to in one way, shape or form, but what why is it becoming such a, such a well regarded product using, as you said, so many different functional circumstances like oil, bombs, etc? What is it that's special?

Babak  

So I'll talk about it firstly, considering your audience from a kind of physical aspect. So I think I think there's really three main things that this is borne out. And in fact, it's quite funny because somebody did literally just text me this literally just now saying, Oh, it's amazing what I've seen the difference pre and post is the CBD you've given me. So I think I think yeah, the first is, is, is sleep. So first of all, it helps people get to sleep better, but also, and this is really proven out by a lot of kind of Fitbit or tracker stuff that people tend to get a deeper more restorative sleep when they and they take CBD so they're in their REM or their kind of deep sleep cycle for longer. And that really just helps your body recover, right because that's the that's the way that your body really gets better when you've been doing when you've been doing stuff exercise. The second thing is people people like it for kind of like a light pain relief. And again, it's quite interesting, like because the US is way ahead, as you mentioned before on CBD and all that kind of stuff. And initially, a lot of the popularity came out of things like contact sports. And actually in the UK, you get a lot of rugby players who are really big CBD fans as well, because I think...

Will:  

Really? This is something I didn't so I knew about like relaxation impact, but people use it for pain relief and post exercise, post impact...

Babak  

I think in a lot of the exercise world specifically, I know there's a lot of use cases of anxiety and stress, which which are which are highly relevant. But I think in the exercise world, you know, what you'll see is, a lot of it is around that they grew out of that high impact area and a lot of the popularity and I think actually in the US had a really, really bad culture of people popping a lot of painkillers.

Will:  

Yeah, so this is the thing, right? The opioid epidemic and people bad shoulders, bad necks, bad knees...

Yeah, this kind of stuff. And I think, you know, over that, no, no offense to any of your US listeners. There was always a bit of a culture of kind of, you know, you're feeling a bit, you know, a pill is the answer. The nice thing about CBD is you can kind of, you can take it kind of without consequence, it's much more of a kind of natural remedy as a replacement for those kind of things. So, yeah, you know, you've got, you know, big stars in the US everyone from kind of Megan Rapinoe to Rob Grokowski, Mike Tyson,, all big CBD kind of proponents and you know, obviously the Joe Rogan you know, I'm sure you have as many listeners as Joe Rogan...

Will:  

Obviously, totally the same...

Babak  

He's also a big guy that's behind it, because he's very plugged into the kind of fight scene over there. And I think I think for us that you know, translates but kind of translates to everyone, right? Because if you want a bit of a if you want to do an exercise, push, or maybe even just you're getting a little bit older, then you're always picking up these aches and pains and little niggles and stuff and that kind of leads on to the third one, which is this anti inflammation stuff. So you know, I think the second one's more relevant to kind of muscles and bumps and bruises but also with joints and flare ups and stuff like that as well. If you're doing a lot of, you know, either repetitive movements I mean, I'm personally a big hockey player, and that's one of the reasons why I got to it in the first place. It's one of my passions, but like you know, my my right, my right elbow like it is not so good anymore because I'm coming to the end of my time playing at a really high level. And that's, you know, that is one of the things that helps with that. So I think that there's a whole, those are the three main things, I think from a, from a kind of exercise perspective that's really helpful.

Will:  

Yes, interesting. So a lot of people that listen to this show are people that either teach a lot of classes, or they have been teaching for a long time. And they may be working within the boundaries of some injuries, or some, some painful parts of their body that they that they kind of power through. And so it's interesting to hear about these different ways of doing it. Because obviously, the you don't necessarily want to be  medicalized. But if you can take something that's natural that will assist you with recovery, and you said, like no downsides, or no consequences. Is it the case that there's no, there's no downside to taking things like CBD? Like the downside? Does caffeine have a downside? I'm curious to know about this, like these natural things that will take are there, what are the downsides of doing this? If you were being completely objective about it?

Babak  

Yeah, no, totally. And I think I think the downsides of of like caffeine, are quite a quite obvious, right? Because if I mean, a for some people, it does bring out a little bit of anxiety, it can give you the jitters and stuff like that, if you're really susceptible to it. And I think also it can disrupt your sleep. If you take it too late in the day and all that kind of stuff. I think whether you have whether there's kind of direct impacts and that are negative caffeine on you, I mean, I think you can you can bear it out by the fact that, you know, there's probably billions of people every day who are taking caffeine, it doesn't really bother them at all. So I think, I think it's, and this is probably true of a lot of a lot of nootropics is, are you using them at the right time for the right purpose. And if you are, then there's kind of there isn't really much of a downside for you. You know, candidly is, the greater risk is probably that you're not, you've got something that you're not very react responsive to, and it's a bit of a waste, as opposed to it being actually bad for you. And kind of you know, the same thing, the same thing kind of applies with with CBD, I think you can you can, you can broadly take, you know, as long as you don't exceed the measures that want any any kind of common common CBD that you'll get like, as long as you don't exceed that amount, I think you're pretty much can take it every day, and it doesn't have a negative impact for you.

Will:  

Cool. So we've talked about caffeine, we've talked about CBD, are there any other kind of big, like nootropics that are sort of headline or Billboard's items in terms of when we're talking about this in the context of sports and recovery? 

Babak  

Yeah, I mean, hundreds more. The laundry list is a really long, and you can kind of go on about it. I mean, I guess let me let me pick out a couple. And then obviously, I'm more than happy to kind of talk about this with anyone if they want to reach out whatever. I think I think one that's quite interesting. And one that we include in our in our focus products is L-Theanine. So what L-theanine does is is regulate your, your alpha brainwaves. And what that enables you to do is kind of with a steady of kind of energetic calm, and that's one of the reasons we include it, it's really popular in like Silicon Valley at the moment. So people kind of like to offset caffeine with kind of CBD and an L-theanine as as examples, just like we do in the focus product. Because, you know, if you take on too much caffeine or you or you you know, like the previous pre workout product as an example, then you know, people are really common with that kind of like skin crawl feeling and...

Will:  

So I'll be totally honest and say that I have, I remember when I used to be in New Zealand and teach at Les Mills, in Auckland, on the big stage there before the days of, of pre workout, this is kind of in my like sort of late teens, early 20s, we would crack a V and V was the New Zealand version of Red Bull essentially. And so I have one of those and so I've been using caffeine to up my performance and kind of get me game ready and the game was a rows class. I needed to perform and I wanted to I wanted to be at the top level of performance. And then I have like tried most pre workouts as they've gone through and I haven't taken them for a long time. The simple reason being that I got to the point where it would wake me up and it would make me more energetic but I would just feel like the pins and needles and like feeling in the face and the flush and the and I just so what is that reaction? So anyone that's taking pre workout so we're not talking caffeine here, we're talking like there's the Beachbody have got one, there's Jack 3D, there's all manner of these. What is it that made your skin prickle in such an uncomfortable way?

It's the B-Thalanine and again, I suppose you could you could describe that as a as a nootropic as well. I suppose, if it had that effect on you. But I mean, I guess the reason that we excluded that from our product is because we hated that feeling. I don't know how sustainable it is like, whereas for us, it's about you have, you know, because I guess a lot of people, and I'm talking, I'm talking the customers of your exercise classes now rather than the actual trainers, but that they might, they probably don't define themselves as, athletes, they define themselves as fit people, they've been doing it four or five times a week or whatever. But you know, I suppose much like you, these days without putting too much or too many words in your mouth, you're doing classes, but you've also got a podcast, you've got to, all these other things. So I guess for us, it was also like, there was a big crash associated with pre workouts in the past, that you take it and then you're like, you're, you're up and you're going, you know, you can smash the workout for an hour, but then afterwards, you're left on the couch, and you can't even kind of go and do anything. So for us it was about how do we create something that's as much cognitive as it is physical, so it has the physical assets, but it's still cognitive, but then also something that I'm gonna be able to take in morning, and then I'm going to be able to go ahead and smash my day at work as well, as opposed to it being like a, you know, that's the end of it for me. So, and I think that's, that's probably the future of where, you know, that this kind of supplementation is going. Because, you know, I think, you know, if you take if you take the history of it, you had you had protein, obviously, if you did go all the way back, which was firstly, just bodybuilders, yeah. And then, and then kind of as time has gone on, it's kind of come to almost everyone.

Will:  

Yeah, right. Like, they're not like, so I like full disclosure, I haven't taken any supplements. I tried your products recently, because I was really curious. But I haven't taken supplements for years, I stopped taking protein. And I just decided that I was gonna try and eat a balanced diet with like, actual vegetables and kind of, yeah, I occasionally have a protein bar. But the reason is, just because I know there's 200 calories in it. And that and I want an easy snack that won't upset. But I've kind of done the protein thing. And I have friends you know, that religiously take protein, I've never been the kind of person that has any problem putting on weight. In fact, the opposite. So I've never been looking to like supplement calories or anything like that. But the the thing I liked about the focus product is exactly that. It's like, it didn't get, it kind of made me energetic, and a little bit focused without giving me all the negative stuff, which is like the heart palpitations, like raising your heart rate and making your skin prickle. I always, when I exercise in the morning, do my own exercise. And this is outside of any type of supplementation or pre workout, I would always have a pen and paper next to me, because exercising in the morning, once the blood starts to flow is always when I would have my best ideas. And so an exercise in the morning, and I think of all of the things on my to do list I needed to do and I would like like stop and write things. And that was kind of the feeling that the focus gave, it was like a little bit of clarity. And the same as I would have got, if I had had a coffee and done exercise at the start of my day, when I had a whole lot of things running through my brain to kind of give me some focus.

Babak  

Yeah, and this is the bad thing, like you're kind of writing off business strategy, which is a great thing, because that blood flow to the brain is generally working. But I think you know, in an ideal world in the future you've got because some people take, like candidly, some people take our focus as well, just just to do a day's work really helps them because it helps them reach that kind of flow state. But then also, you know, if you if you started expanding into the future, a bit more on going a little bit more crazy is there are also like solutions for social situations. And you've seen, you know, success of some brands that people you know, I'm plugging other people's brands, I've got no second at all now, but that like brands like through free spirit, for example, which is a kind of it's UK based, but it's like a plant based spirit brand and gives people like a little bit of a buzz without any alcohol and kind of forms the replacement in cocktails and stuff like that. It's a whole new world that we're kind of going into, and I think, you know, again, to kind of diverge off of the subjects slightly, but I think one of the reasons all these things become popular is because people's kind of view of their own wellness is that the standards of their own wellness have got a lot higher, right. It used to be that oh, okay, I feel I feel okay, you know, and that that counts as being well, whereas now, you know, we've got we've got a much more like focus for your mental health, on your physical health being not just I'm well, but you know, I can run 20k.

Will:  

We've talked about it on this podcast a number of times like wearables, and ora rings, and Apple watches and all these things that are allowing people to micro manage their own performance and their own recovery and their own sort of personal metrics. And so people now will actually see the change in terms of if someone's got an aura ring or a whoop or wood or any number of these things. If they, you know, try a product that's designed to either focus them or recover them are these certain things, they can actually see the metrics of whether or not that has an impact. And I The funny thing is, is that I think people have forgotten that, like, all of humanity has always done this. If you're someone that has felt that you're getting a bit tired, and you wouldn't go to chocolate bar when you're a kid, and then it made you a bit more energetic, that's essentially exactly what it is. Right? Because sugar is, is just another one of these products that creates a metabolic reaction that that changes the way we feel and perform.

Babak  

Yeah, I mean, it's just biohacking really, isn't it? That's all it is. And I always use the simplistic examples. But you know, you from all over the world, you've got slightly different things that people use. But essentially, that's that's kind of what we're talking about. But again, I think the reason it plugs in so well with this kind of like wellness and active thing is it, you know, as you just described, kind of more and more people are almost treating themselves like athletes, and that kind of that aura ring kind of Fitbit thing that you know, but not only are they treating themselves, like athletes, they're kind of pushing themselves, like athletes as well, like, you know, it's not unusual to have people that have, you know, normal jobs, but they're doing, you know, they've been pretty tough workouts on this every day of the week as well. And that's where you start thinking about, you know, for us, I guess it's products, but how does that also changed the whole suite of how people view themselves because the standards have, you know, and this isn't, there's a good and a bad side to this as well like, because it's like the standards of how you live have increased so dramatically in terms of your your, your your physical wellness. And that's changed hugely, but the more people that think and act like essentially a kind of a pseudo athlete and the bigger market, there's going to be for these products that do help you recover and do help you, you know, give you a bit of a kick and enhancement before you before you workout and things like that. Because there's just more and more people kind of flooding into this flooding into this world. 

Will:  

Things like CrossFit, and turf games and all these different events that people do for like that, they're not professional athletes, but they're operating at that level. And that becomes something that's important to them and part of their life.

Babak  

Can I just say, man, that stuff is crazy. Like I you know, I played sports. And obviously, we'll have relatively recently, I've had to go to turf and all this other stuff. I mean, the stuff that people are doing there. And they're not like, in some ways, they're self selected, right. But you know, the people that are religiously getting down and doing this stuff. I mean, I'm impressed that people are out there doing some of this stuff. And it is crazy. And you can kind of get to the top of your top of your game. I mean, I guess it kind of kind of filters down as well as the amount of people out there that are now just that level of kind of physical fitness.

Will:  

I think it's always been a thing. You've always had people doing half marathons and marathons or cycling races or triathlons. But endurance sports is not for everybody. And so now you've I think that things like CrossFit and TurfGames and that sort of stuff. We've just expanded out the repertoire of things that people can do when they are like adults and past the point where they can be a professional sports person, but but when they still want to do sports be involved and all that kind of stuff.

Babak  

Yeah, I mean, it's completely what's what's what's crazy for me as well, is that what's really useful about it, I think, is it gives you this this aspect of a game day. Like when I've been playing sports the game day's the biggest day of the week, right? And, you know, that's the day that you're kind...

Will:  

Yeah, the thing you train for, right, like, so yeah, you're peaking up to something. 

Babak  

Exactly, yeah. And I can see why they're so popular. And why because it's like, when you know, you have a marathon in two weeks or three months away, then you've got a very set training routine, you do it, and then you kind of set the next challenge or whatever. But I think why they're so wildly popular, right? Yeah. Why?

Will:  

Because we're seasonal, right? Like, at the end of the day, winter, come summer come spring, like we're we're seasonal creatures that can't necessarily maintain that same amount of effort or energy all the time. And so having peaks and troughs at like just the same as like in a day. It's important. So you weren't always working in this. You were coming from corporate life. So why don't you tell me a little bit about what motivated you to leave sort of the City of London and start this particular type of business?

Babak  

Yeah, I mean, there's two or three motivations. I think some of them. Some of them were just personal. Like I always, I always just really wanted to be a founder, and really wanted to start my own thing. I'm doing this with my best mate, which is also obviously great, ups and downs. And I think I think honestly, like, I wouldn't have probably phrased it in this term before. But when I look at my life, like what is the thing that I'm just really passionate about? Like what was the thing that I'd leap out of bed for in the morning and that is just getting out and doing stuff. And by doing stuff, I mean, generally just like exercising, it's not just, you know, group classes, but long cycle rides, playing sports, you know, being outside, pushing, pushing, you know, in that regard in almost every way. So I think when the opportunity came up and kind of be part of this world and part of that community, that that was also kind of a big pool. And then obviously, from a business perspective, CBD is relatively new on the scene. And there's a, there's a big job to do on that, like, my previous life wasn't quite kind of City of London, it was more like, I did a lot of work in branding at Unilever and a lot of business strategy across the retail consumer space. So, you know, there's obviously a lot of opportunities you can take in this in this market. But I think for me, the cutting edge felt like nootropics and CBD, and can we can we make a bit of a dent with that? And I think that's, that's pretty how Level Out was born.

Will:  

And so like, what is the focus of level out? Because I know that you have like looking at your branding and marketing, you are particularly focused on athletes or everyday athletes, so to speak. What like, what is the what is the goal of the company? Like, what is the impact that you're wanting to have with these new products that you are creating and putting out into the market?

Babak  

Yeah, it's really interesting. So I think for the focus product, for the kind of the pre moment products, I think there's, as we've discussed, there's problems with the pre-workout market by market at the moment. And I think again, if you look at the protein market 15 years ago, it was only bodybuilders, now it can be almost anyone.

Babak  

Right, and someone's made a huge amount of money. 

Will:  

I love grenade. I have to say I live in Paris now. And the one thing that really pisses me off about Paris, there's no Grenade Bars anywhere. They've only got Whole Food, it's really annoying...bakeries and no Grenade bars.

Babak  

I just think like, it's, it's amazing they've been so successful, like, because when you see the kind of protein bar, like in my local Tescos, or whatever, now there's 25 different options. Yeah, it's crazy, crazy, but and they're all like 3 quid each, you get a meal for that. But they still do so. But I mean, I think that, you know, protein is such it's become such a like central part of our palates now. And you know, you're supposed to be taking x amount for every gram of body weight and all this kind of stuff. But I don't think anyone's really nailed that pre moment yet. And why not feel great when you exercise? Why not have the kind of mental sharpness and get your body in just the right place. And maybe it's not absolutely every time, as I say to people, like, if you've just had, if you're a fit person, you've just had two days off, and you're, you've got your first class back, when it's Monday morning, and whatever, and you're feeling fresh as a daisy, maybe you don't want it but if you're anything like me, and you're doing six days a week, there's several moments or when you've got a big game, or when, you know, when it gets to that, you know, if you're if you're a trainer and you're you know, I speak to guys all the time now, so I know how hard it is, and you've got your third class, how do you keep your energy up? Or, you know, you've been there 100 times, I'm sure.

Will:  

This is this is when I used the Sugar Free Red Bull. 

Yeah, or your everyday, everyday athlete who, who's, you know, whatever situation you might be in, but you know, might be that it's, I'm just thinking back to like, my co- founders, he'd be like, everyone should be taking focus absolutely every day. But I mean, I think for me, there's, there's a moment that's that's, you know, two, three days a week, if you're a person that's doing, you know, four to six workouts every week, but wherever stable when they come in that you can get more out of it, and you can make yourself feel better. And you know, I think that's that's basically our mission.

Will:  

And so like what I was just thinking, like one of the problems that I've always had with teaching, I'm thinking specifically to the audience that listens to this is that, I'm teaching evening class, I've had a really long day at work doing whatever other job that I was doing, or potentially other classes. And then I wouldn't want to necessarily have the caffeine because I know that the caffeine will keep me up. How like, does focus do that as well? Like what are the the active ingredients in focus that will be different from a classic pre-workout?

Babak  

Yeah, so we've got Gruana, which does break down to a little bit of caffeine. But what that does is it breaks down a lot more slowly. So you don't that's why you don't get the much you get much more of an equal hit. But also with the L-theanine and CBD, like I'm comfortable with taking it in the evening. And that, that doesn't sort of kind of affect my sleep in the same way. Because because we have those offsets in it. So I can I can pretty much take it whenever but obviously, as I said before, kind of it's a difficult world to put a really strict rule on because it really depends on how much this stuff affects you. 

Will:  

It's the kind of thing where, like, it's all it's all personal response, right? Just the same as alcohol, sugar, like caffeine...

Babak  

Absolutely like, we all know that we all know that one person that can have a glass of wine and then be on the floor and you're you know like, what happened?  You're six foot five and you weigh you know, 100 kilos out how's this happening to you? And I think I think that's the that's the same truth with with nootropics and CBD and, and, you know, anything in this kind of realm of you really got to find what fits for you. We know that not this isn't going to be perfect, but you know, our product won't be perfect for everyone. But we think that for lots of people they can be an enhancement. So I guess that's that, sorry, that's a really...but I think I think that's the only fair way to really talk about it.

Will:  

Like, as I said, we've we've had various people on this podcast talking about, like, the impact of wearables and technology and different types of exercise. And, and one of the things that is really obvious when anybody speaks is that, like, so much of this is personal. And it's an element of figuring out what you want, we talk about it in relation to classes to like, not everyone's gonna like a spin class, and people hate them. But not everyone's gonna like a step class or a choreography class. And so it's exactly the same, like you find what works for you. And then you you test it out and do a little bit of biohacking on yourself in terms of seeing how you react to these things, and then figure out what works for you.

Babak  

Absolutely. And it's funny, right? Because we, we, I talked to people that are really into like, really heavy hitting pre-workouts all the time.

Will:  

I really love that Jack3D.

Babak  

And I'm like, cool, that's great. That's great for you, you're not going to be up, you're not going to be for us, like the CBD will probably help you because you're clearly hammering your body really hard. The focus product isn't gonna be for you, because it's it, you know, you're at peace with where you're at with with that. And I think for us, like, it's interesting, because there's a lot, there's a whole broader church of people, like, a lot of women really like focus, because, you know, isn't quite such a hard hit as well. So, you know, it's funny, but I completely agree, like you kind of have to, you have to find what works best for you. And then, and then, and then stick to it, or continue to expand it depending on kind of where you're at. It also might depend on your different moments, right? Yeah, I don't know if you know, I don't know you've been, you've done an all nighter and you've got to do a certain amount in the next day, then you probably going to have a different different choices, then if you're somebody who, you know, is in a great place and feeling pretty rested, and all that kind of stuff. So I think there's, there's, as you want to say his answer. It also depends on who you are, like personality wise, right? We all know, there'll be some people out there that overtrain. Right.

Will:  

A lot of people that listen to this, I imagine.

Babak  

Yeah, your average overtraining, so you're probably your solution you're looking for, like recovery solutions, right? Like, if you're doing three spin classes a day, five times a week, then you know, you might be looking for more like the CBD side to help you money, really get back as effectively as it can. But it might be that some of your clients or customers, all that kind of stuff, I mean, they're struggling to motivate themselves to get to get up and do it and work with work out with the right intensity. So for them, it might be like, well, actually, there's a different kind of would be it focused on something else that the product that helps you with that. So I think, you know, there's a lot of different kind of, like, angles that you can look at it from and it's quite individual in terms of what the what the challenges that you're facing. Yeah.

Will:  

Sweet, so we will, we'll provide various links to your website. You're available in the UK at the moment, right? So if you're if you're outside of the UK, they can't quite get a taste just yet.

Babak  

Not quite. We ship over actually, so we don't ship to Canada, but we will ship to US and EU.

Will:  

Yeah. Okay, cool. So we'll we'll add some links to your site so people can check it out. You have recover and focus and like, are there any other like, what's the next sort of Silicon Valley like, product?

Babak  

The next one? Yeah, the next one's actually going to be a little bit a little bit, we're actually just going to market with it, it's a little bit more boring, should we say? Like, they're like a Silicon Valley hack. But basically, right now, a lot of people take CBD in an oil format, which is what our reset form is. We have a water soluble format to kind of fit in with both when people take like coffee. So quite a lot of people as I mentioned before with the offset, and people like having having an adversity in their coffee, but the oil doesn't mix with water so it's not effective. So we're going to bring out a water soluble CBD for people to just have a couple drops in coffee but also obviously in smoothies for like a post workout if that fits with a gym or whatever. And those have been quite popular because that's kind of we've seen you know, it's adding into people's routines already be that I mean a lot of people a lot of gyms, we're selling it to a lot of gyms for smoothies, basically. 

Will:  

I see, I've seen actually CBD infused smoothies popping up in the gyms and studios that I go to, so that that's what that's that the next product that comes out? 

Babak  

Yeah, the only thing about it is I think a lot of them are still using this oil based stuff and it just is not an effective way. So I think quite a lot of if you don't know much about CBD, just go and buy CBD and stick it in a shake, it doesn't really work. But yeah, there's loads of directions we want to take focus, we're not out of ideas for sure. And say like, do you stick with the exercise theme or they also like at work or even a social, you know, version of focus potentially in the future. 

Will:  

Awesome. Well, Babak, thank you very much for talking to me and explaining nootropics are to our audience. I know for a fact that everyone listening to this will have done some form of pre-workout or pre-class at some point whether it's a muffin, or, or a Twix or Mars bar or a Red Bull. I know that everyone will will have experienced themselves doing this. And so I wanted to take the chance to kind of talk about some of the new developments in what you can do to ensure that you are performing at the highest level, while also avoiding any of the downsides of sugar crashes, caffeine highs or, or the pain of a pre workout. 

Will:  

So there you have it, the world of nootropics and how they're helping athletes, executives and instructors like you and me operate at an optimal level of performance. Now, if you're interested in getting some Level Out products a try, Babak was nice enough to give our listeners a discount code for 10% off. So if you go to www.levelout.co.uk, you can use promo code SH1FT to get a 10% discount, we'll also put a link in the show notes. Now they ship anywhere that CBD is legal, but there may be some minimum order quantities and shipping costs depending on where you are. In any event, if you're the type of person who's a little bit interested in supplementation, and how it can impact your performance as an instructor, I recommend checking out the active ingredients and the focus and recover products and giving them or a brand that's more local to you a try. I'm someone that gave up taking pre-workout a number of years ago, but I still occasionally need to pick me up before I teach an important class. And I was really really interested by the feeling of energy and focus I got from this particular new type of supplement, so I recommend giving it a try if that's the type of thing that interests you. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.come. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.