Jack: 

It's that mindset. And this is what we want to kind of teach in the training, not just ABC follow this, but it's like mindset things, you've got an obligation to that person's health and fitness to really give them an amazing session and show how base and how this type of training genuinely can help them. So that's kind of a real sort of focus on our training. 

Will:  

Hey, I'm Will Brereton, founder of SH1FT Fitness. And this is group fitness real talk, a show about how to survive and even thrive in group fitness in 2021 and beyond. What makes a world class fitness instructor? That's the million dollar question, or is it being world class instructor doesn't happen by luck, and there isn't one key trait that makes an instructor world class. Every single instructor has a different style. There's no one size fits all approach to Group Fitness instructing. But there are absolutely common things that every group fitness instructor can do to be better in their own unique way. Today on the podcast, I'm chatting with Jack Thomas. Jack owns Base in Thailand, a group of boutique fitness clubs that are leading the way in fitness in Asia. Jack also does a lot of work in the fitness industry in Asia broadly to promote group fitness classes fitness in general. Jack has a massive passion for recruiting and training new instructors to deliver world class fitness experiences. Today, he's here to share with you what he looks for when he's recruiting and the key things he focuses on when developing instructor talent to take them from beginner to good to great. Jack Thomas, welcome to the podcast. How are you today? 

Jack  

I'm good, Will. Thanks for coming on the show. Pleasure to be here. 

Will:  

And tell our listeners where you are coming from today.

Jack  

I am currently coming from Bangkok in Thailand, where I've been an expat for about 15 or 16 years but I'm not Thai, I was born in the UK. So I'm British expat abroad. I will stay in Thailand for the foreseeable future at least until I see myself going back to the UK.

Will:  

And you and I met on a panel that we did was it, wasn't it? And since then we've had a number of conversations and I was really keen to get you on the podcast to talk about developing a world class team of instructors which you have done at your facility in Bangkok. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your studio and what you guys are doing there? 

Jack  

Yeah, sure. So I'll take it back to when I first got in the fitness industry. So I was a five year expat in Bangkok, six years when I first got into the industry 10 years ago. Now the Bangkok fitness industry was very underdeveloped at the time, I went back to the UK to get my qualifications, really, I think with the idea of coming back as a personal trainer, that was kind of what I saw myself doing. And we talked about this the other day. Well, when I was doing my certification, there was a lot of talk about exercise to music, sharing my qualification. And that was one of the modules that I could have chosen, which I chose not to do, I didn't really think it was best suited to me. So I didn't really see myself as a group class instructor. But I came back I started working at a studio. And actually the first thing I did was boot camps in the park. And I absolutely love that. And there was nothing like that really going on in Bangkok, there was certainly no boutique fitness scene like you see today, nothing like the studios, you get in New York and London and everything else. And I just really loved during the boot camps, I thought was a great way to connect with people. You know, we'd have like 15,20 people sometimes. It really was, was big at the time. And it was really a lot of fun. And I learned a lot about how to connect with people as a coach, how to coach large groups of people, as well. And looking back, I think that was really invaluable experience. So I went to that studio for five years, I did all sorts of different types of group classes. So I used to do one with these expat wives. So it was an outdoor boot camp in their little kind of compound in Bangkok, that must have been about 8 to 10 women. And it was raining one day and they said, would you mind doing a aqua boot camp in the swimming pool. So I was like, well, I don't really know what that is for sure. Let's give it a go. So he went in, and I just kind of like improvised, and then afterwards as well, maybe that could be a little bit better. So I just looked on YouTube to see other little things that we could do in the swimming pool. And these women absolutely loved it. So I added one in extra on top of that boot camp each week, I did the same it was just kind of like hustling, getting experience making money. But actually when I look back to these experiences, I really gained a huge amount from just taking every single opportunity that came in the group class space. Now shortly after that, we opened up pretty much the first boutique fitness training studio in Bangkok, called The Lab, which is still around today. And they had a big focus on you, I guess kind of like an F45 style circuit training class very early in 2012, even by worldwide standards, but certainly by Bangkok standards, and we really created this cool group class training program. You know, I was pretty much leading that one of the main instructors there and although I was doing Personal Training, to be honest, my real love was actually through fitness and group class.

Will:  

Oh, interesting. Even though there was PT that was leading you into the industry.

Jack  

Yeah, well, that was my first thought really, because I saw that the quality of personal training wasn't particularly good in Thailand. And that was kind of what drew me into the industry, but it's actually group classes that I really enjoyed most. And that's all I do now. And, you know, fast forward, and I now run a, you know, a company with three studios, and I don't do Personal Training, but I still do jump in and do the group classes. So I was at that company for four years, then I left that company to set up Base. And so we had a vision of raising the standards of the fitness industry in Asia, we have our first location in 2016. We open two more each year after that. And then since then, we've been focusing on building technology to help record and track our clients progress as they go through our group classes. One of the favorite parts of the job for me, and this is why I was really keen to have a chat to you on the podcast is developing our group class coaches. We invest so much into their learning into their education into that first month, when we're kind of teaching them how to deliver a great group class and what our group class concept says. And that's really become an area of big passion for me, you know, developing the coaches building them up to be world class. So anything I can share on that today, Will, I'm very happy to do so.

Will:  

Fantastic. So obviously, our listeners are all Group Fitness people, we have a few people from the boutique sector, some people that teach in the community, and then other people that teach in gyms. And I think the thing that we've talked about a lot on the podcast is that the boutique sector did a really good job of genuinely raising the standards of group fitness, and also proving the value and profitability of group fitness as a service and a product when it's done really, really well. So everybody listening to this can definitely learn a lot from people like you that sit at the sort of top end of the premium sector and the boutique sector and how you go about creating those really meaningful experiences before, during and after class, I want to wind it right back and talk about your process for finding and training and then launching your instructors into the field. How do you go about selecting who the instructors are? And what do you look for when you're looking for a really, really great group and this teacher?

Jack  

I think sometimes you meet someone like boom, this person has got everything that it takes. And sometimes you just sort of see the potential there. But you can see they haven't quite come out of their shell yet, or they're a little bit nervous, we get that quite a lot in Thailand, because it's quite an underdeveloped industry, there's not a huge talent pool. So sometimes you have to kind of spot that rough diamond and really sort of make them great. The way that Base has evolved is that we're a very international brand. So we have mostly Thai instructors, but they either grew up in the US or Australia, or they're half Thai or half-European. Just it's kind of happened a little by accident, but it's got a very international field. And so what's what that's meant is that most of the applications we get are people that wants to come into that environment, they already speak English quite well. Or perhaps they're quite international themselves. And we'd kind of be the first choice for doing this kind of thing in in Bangkok. 

Will:  

Your classes are taught in English, or do you

Jack  

They're all in English, yeah.

Will:  

Which is a very common thing for the boutique sector around the world, even in non English, non-native English speaking countries, right?

Jack  

It is, it is, yes, especially in like capital cities, I would say they have quite an international feel. And I think most Thais here at least speak enough English to understand the class. If not, they might come with their friend or it can be done very visually. We did a digital offering as well during during COVID. And that was all in English, although we've done a few live classes in time. But yeah, going back to the recruitment process, the so we attract the people that have sort of a fairly consistent with our brand separately. And I think if you go back to that kind of initial meeting, you know, find out their reasons for being in the fitness industry is a big one for me, you know, they've got to have that genuine want for helping people.

Will:  

I was gonna ask you this you pull from people within the industry rather than going outside of the industry? Or is it a mix? Because I know in boutique, there's a especially when it comes to cycle like, literally the studio in London cycle, but also cycle generally through soulcycle there's kind of a move towards pulling performers in and then putting them in front of a class, which, you know, it works? I have, I've always had views on that, because obviously I came from the fitness background and I was kind of like, are you training them to understand all of the fundamentals, and I've been to a number of boutique cycle classes where I am a little bit dubious about the efficiency and safety of some of the moves. So tell me a little bit about like where you draw from?

Jack  

Well, one of our sort of values really is we have qualified coaches that understand you know, how to coach a squat stuff like that. So you know, we wouldn't pull from the performer category. You know, I'm very good friends with the ladies that run Physique 57 here, and they do do that a lot they get in dancers, they get in performance, performance, even like drama students and kind of like because so much of it is kind of hyping up the crowd, right and being good on the mic. We are more shifted towards the performance end of the spectrum, but we still really believe in creating this experience. So we kind of sit somewhere in the middle, you have to be qualified, but you have to at least be in the process of doing your qualifications. And then we get to see if it's a personality fit, you know, see if this person first and foremost is in the industry for the right reasons. I think that's a non-negotiable really for us that they really do. really want to help people, even if they only get one person signed up in their class are still going to deliver a good session. And that's something that we kind of teach as a value down the line as well. You know, things like outgoing personality, obviously, you sometimes think, okay, this person is going to be very suited for group class. But that's not always the case. We've got one fantastic group classes structure there was actually very nervous, very quiet in the interview, but seemed like a really nice guy. And he said he was more nervous than he actually came across, actually. And he's turned out to be an absolute superstar because he's really followed all of our processes, he's followed all of the little tips we gave, were basically just connecting with the people in front of him. And he's done that so effectively and so well, that he's now one of our favorite coaches. Over time you get better at identifying these people quickly.

Will:  

Yeah. And you often think of Group Fitness instructors and class teachers as being extroverts. But if I look at all of the best instructors, you know, it's right, split down the middle, there's a lot of introverts that when they get up on stage, or in front of a group or put a mic on, just become a different person. And yeah, and which is quite funny, because often, people within the classes will see them outside of class and be quite surprised at how shy they are.

Jack  

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it's, um, yeah, something that comes very naturally for some people. I mean, for me, if I look at the kind of group plus a structure that I want, I didn't want that crazy in your face, larger than life personality, you know, actually prefer a little bit more downtempo. But you can see they really care. So there's kind of like a place for everyone. But you don't necessarily want that massive extrovert every time. 

Will:  

Yeah, totally. Okay, so you've identified the people that you want to bring on, tell me a little bit about your training process. Because I know that a lot of people listening to this podcast are instructors that have been instructing for a long time, you know, a decade or more. And it's probably been a long time since they actually did the training process. And one of the reasons they listen to this podcast, because they get to listen to people like you and our other guests who can sort of refresh their thinking on how they might go about developing themselves. I know for me, I obviously started listeners in New Zealand, and I went to like the Les Mills Academy, we had to do an audition. And they basically just chose people based on how they moved and look. And then we did this three month process. And that was, before I even did my fitness qualification, it was kind of done in parallel. So like, I know the value in doing this kind of Academy type approach. So I'm really keen to hear about how you go about instilling these values and skills.

Will:  

Well it's become pretty much my favorite part of the job. I do absolutely love it for many different reasons. I mean, it's been cool to refine the process, year by year, we call them waves, right? So we're on wave 12, I think now of coaches, as well, you have two or three coaches coming on now it's a little bit more, especially as we expanded and opened a new location, I think we had a wave of like seven people. So we set up a whatsapp group, we get them all introducing each other to everyone to each other, you know, knowing each other a little bit more, and often they become really good friends kind of within that wave. And that's kind of part of that camaraderie of kind of going through the same thing together, in everyone's really excited to be in the industry. And just to get back on a previous point, I actually prefer brand new people into the industry. Because we have a set way of doing things, we have a technology that surrounds the programming, most of the programming is standardized. So there's elements that coaches can decide themselves. But if they've got years of experience, they just don't typically fit into that. There's definitely exceptions for sure, over the last few years, and over my time in fitness, but typically, I love getting that brand new person in the industry. And one thing I love about it is in three months, I feel like we can get them to a level that I was out after like three, four or five years, you know, it's kind of like all the education or the knowledge or the structure for training, which I didn't really get, I learned so much from from my predecessors, I really owe a huge amounts of them. But we just weren't at the stage of bases that now. So I'm really happy to offer that. So starts off with the recruitment process, of course, then we get them in for a two week intensive but actually goes on for about two months. And we would hope to get them signed off to do classes by then get to know each other, first of all, talk about some of the values, that base has values that they have. Personally, I think that's a good way to understand, you know that we're on the same page and talk about what's important to us. And then we really go through the whole group class process, starting right at the very beginning. And the way that we frame is that if you get one part, right, the next part is much easier. So you should have the elements that you can plan and program. You should do that before you come into base. Right? So that's the night before maybe or a few hours before you can do it weeks ahead if you want. Yeah, then you arrive at base at the very, very least 20 minutes before the class that's like an absolute non negotiable, which I don't see that often in the industry. And we didn't really do in my old studio. And that was something on day one. I was like absolute bare minimum 20 minutes you're into the class into the rooms that you can set the class up in the right way.

Will:  

And I like the that is so important because if you don't arrive in enough time, you can't get yourself in the mental headspace right and I say this having been living lived in London for a long time. And actually one of the reasons I gave up regular classes in London was because I would get so stressed out on the tube because I give myself you know, a full hour, meaning that I could be there that 20 minutes before. But if the tube didn't arrive or as a bit packed or it was raining or anything like that, it would shorten my travel distance. And I would turn up at the gym, so stressed and my head wouldn't be in the right place. And by the end of the class, I had pulled it around, because I enjoy teaching, and I was in the moment, but walking into the classroom, I just wasn't present. And I reflect on that now and think it definitely wasn't putting my best foot forward for either the facility or myself or my members.

Jack  

And I think talking about these things, and kind of these values, and then getting out early, I think, helps..

Will:  

I didn't enjoy it either. Like, I enjoyed the class list, because I was stressed about it. And I would have been if I'd come earlier. And so like it enables a better experience for you as well as an instructor.

Jack  

Exactly. And and I totally agree. And I think if you can address these things early people just kind of do it, it's kind of not a setting those expectations at the very beginning. Yeah. And then things fall into place much, much easier, rather than trying to change a culture later. So you've come in 20 minutes before, you know we talk about positivity is one of our values. But we also talk about those times when you just can't be positive when you really have just been having a really bad day. And we we find a frame is professionalism kicking in. And whether you're digital online fitness, or whether you're in person, I think this is a huge value to have yourself, you should want to give that one person if it's just one person in the morning, it's a radio class or 50 people over some massive outdoor boot camp, the very best service and the very best class, something that you can be proud of. And that moves them forwards. And that needs to kick in above sort of how you're feeling on that day. So we talk a lot about that. Because I know in the past, when I first started as an instructor, and I had one person in the class, I know that sometimes I didn't come across giving my best self. And I feel embarrassed now to look back at that. And it's just not okay at pace. So we kind of prepare them for these times in these moments, I leave the bad vibes at the door, come in once you give them an amazing session, regardless of the circumstances, and then five minutes in, you're going to feel great. And at the end of the day, you're gonna feel great. Right?

Will:  

I have a question on that. So when I did by back to back to my Academy, and one of the guys was instructing. His view is that if you've had a bad day, you just need to wipe it away and never share that with the class. So never, whereas, and I took that with me and did that for a while. And I've actually changed my approach. And if I'm having a bad day, I will share like a share a snippet of why my day has been bad, but in a positive way. And that I'm really glad I'm here in front of you. Because I know that I love teaching classes. I know that I love doing this. And so I can put away the bad stuff. Do you have a like, what's your approach and what's your instructors approach?

Jack  

I think that's good. Um, it wouldn't work for me. I know that wouldn't work for me personally, I really think there's like a way to do it. And I think that's hard, especially if you're scaling, it's a little bit hard sometimes to send now whether they're just having a bit of a whinge and a moan or if they're framing and a real motivational way. And the second one is brilliant, because it makes it more authentic and it makes you more real. The second one is like bang on the money. But I just think it's, it's a little bit difficult to get, I think you know, when you have look at cycles, soulcycle peloton, these guys are just so incredible, and girls, yeah, they can do this very naturally. And it actually ends up being better. For us, we didn't really talk too much about that we try and say just sort of leave your emotions at the door. But if I saw someone doing that, and it was done in the right way that would be that'd be awesome. But you almost need those like presenter like skills, I think.

Will:  

It was a great piece of advice for a brand new instructor because I probably didn't have the skills to manage a room in the way that I do now. And so I think that now I can get people on board by talking about something negative that's happened in a funny or amusing or motivational way. Whereas when I was starting out, and I was probably super stressed about just being at the front of a room and delivering stuff, I don't think I would have had that capacity. So I think it's definitely a skill that you learn. And I don't think it was bad advice for people starting out to just leave it at the door at all.

Jack  

Well, I think for new instructors, you have to be pretty black and white. Because if you say it's okay to do someone might come in and go, I'm supposed to share a story now about something is going wrong, and they might just end up crying in front of everyone or, or misjudge it and end up you know, being very negative. So I think it's the beginning for the early stage, you want to be very black and white.

Will:  

I forget how hard it is when you're just starting like it is I mean, it comes naturally to me now. But it was very difficult to think of all those things like being in front of a group, all the stuff, you've got to do safety ,equipment, music microphone, and if one little thing goes wrong, it just throws you off, which is again, why being there 20 minutes before is such a great just rule, right because you can troubleshoot prior to the start and reduce your stress levels.

Jack  

We are very aware there's a huge amounts of learn when you do a Base class. And again, if I compare ourselves to other boutique studios, kind of more in Asia, you know, the top dogs in London, would widely do it very well. But you know, most of the time is structured just runs in there's no structure. It starts five minutes late just before the music's all over the place. And we we have a lot to learn and a lot to remember and we're kind of aware of that. So we give allowances in the early stages and that's why this process is so important. So they come early, they get the space set up. They make sure the workouts on the board the equipment sound that they need, then they go to the front desk and see who's a first timer in the class, how many people are in the class because that affects how you might manage the space, especially if we have other personal training sessions going on. I just try and connect with people as they come in. So obviously the regulars they should know their name, we've got mind body, so we can cheat with that and see who it is. Newcomers is huge. You know, we talk so much about that. And I was actually on a consultation call today with a client of mine on helping talking all about new clients, first timers, and why they're just so unbelievably important. And it's a make or break situation. So they either love you love what you do, they feel the classes at the right level for them, they connected with the coach and the staff and they're like, boom, I can see myself being part of this community, or they think I've never gone back to this place again. Or worse. Still, I've never gone to any studio. Again, this is definitely not for me, which is tragic.

Will:  

I want to pause on this for a moment because I think it's something that people that teach in the gym may not have the same technology supporting them that boutiques do. So for those people that are listening to this and don't know one of the things that mind body does and other booking software that premium boutiques use that often gyms don't use some some might but often don't, is that you get a little marker when someone is brand new to the studio, do you get it when they're brand new to a style of class or just new to the studio?

Jack  

Just to the studio on mindbody. And then we verbally get that at the beginning of the class or again, what we say is you should have it's not always possible, but you shouldn't have had that conversation before they come in. If they're quite new, oh, have you been surprised before? I've done one class? Have you done base build before? Yeah, oh, no, this is a new one for me. Don't worry, I'll look after you. That goes a long way.

Will:  

Yeah, cuz I know from teaching at a gym. So I obviously come from big box gym background, and I've done boutique, as well. And I've done community and then digital. And I remember being at a gym, and you would always screen for new people at the start of class was very fundamental thing: screen for new people screen, screen for injuries. But the thing about asking who's new at the beginning of your intro is that it doesn't allow you to have any interaction or give them any personal personal help. And that's something that boutiques do amazingly, for personalization, which helps with retention and makes people feel wanted is that you're not putting your hand up in the 30th second of the warm up attract saying I'm new, you're getting a little bit of personalized support before you start. But that is technology enabled. Because people look through the booking software, the reception staff or the management staff are able to identify for instructors who is new. And that's something that people listening to this, that they might not have that but it is so important, they're creating a really good environment. So if you don't have the the check in sheet telling you who's new, think about how you might go about introducing yourself to new people before the start of a class because it really really does change that initial impression. And that is what will get people coming back. They really do make snap decisions off that first class.

Jack  

We've also built it into our processes. So then the front desk also tell the coach because you know the coach might miss it, so the front desk will signal to the coach that this person is new, and the coach will just know, to have a chat with them. I think also often in this industry, it's like, okay, who's first time cool, welcome, welcome. Who's got injuries? Okay, great. Off we go.

Will:  

It's a checklist. Who's new? Who's injured? I'll be giving options, anything else about safety of the room, and go.

Jack  

And then then off you go, and you kind of forgotten completely right, and you're telling them to do all sorts of things they shouldn't be doing because of their injury, or you're not even really paying attention to the fact that they're a newcomer. And again, it's, it's that mindset, this is what we want to kind of teach in the training, not just ABC follow this. But it's like mindset things, you've got an obligation to that person's health and fitness, to really give them an amazing session and show how base and how this type of training genuinely can help them. So that's kind of a real sort of focus on our training. So if you do that, right, you've prepared the space, you program the class, well, you've got to know them, when you come in and introduce the class, which we actually do on the second. I don't know if we're the only gym, but I think we possibly we are. We train to start literally on the second but again, it starts 90 seconds before. So between 60 and 90 seconds, we've got a mic that you can turn on in the other areas to call people in. And people know now that we start on time. Thailand's notorious for everybody being late. But in our classes people are there on time. Because you know the deal. 

Will:  

There's a studio in London, I'm not sure if they still do it. It's called Digney. But basically, they use Spivey which I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. But it's essentially like the cycling system that gives all the tracking and it has a video that goes along with it. But you hear the countdown for 60 seconds. And I think it's set like hard coded to start on the hour. So if you're in the room, and if the instructors there, it just starts going boom, boom and the 60 pounds down and then it starts on the minute. Yeah, it's really good at but like, I get the I've always wondered, but I get the impression that that is like coded into the system and it's not the fact of instructor starting and it's like it's starting on the hour and if you're not in, you're not in and bad luck.

Jack  

Funnily enough, I did a class to Digney and I didn't hear it, because I wasn't in there, but I remember it starting bang on time and then you have to run in and get everything sorted and it was yeah, it was a very good class,, very well delivered. So, yeah, so when you go to introduce the class, then, you know, I just want to check if it's anyone's first time. Or you might even know let's say you have eight people. Well, you know, those six and those two you've already spoken to. So okay, welcome to the class, guys. Great to see you here today. Jenny, Joe, welcome to Base, I know it's your first time, I'll look after you don't worry, you don't even need to do like is it anyone's first time and a hand goes up at the back and then do you do a handshake or a high five or whatever it is, you've kind of hopefully got that out of the way. So the introduction is then easier, right? It's less time that it takes. And then we break down structures. So it's a minute introduction, it's a minute explaining each station, because we find the instructors often often over explain when they when they go for exercises, and then under coach when the class starts. 

Will:  

Which always annoys me as a participant, because I'm like, Oh, this, if you spend too long talking about this, it just means there's less time for me to actually be doing work. And I'm really here to do work. And I know that new people need the explanation. But I got this, I just want to sort of burn as many calories as I can in this class.

Jack  

So we frame it a different way actually, I'd be interested to get your thoughts. So we think really to teach an exercise when you're teaching 12 exercises, say in the class before you actually start, it any more than 20 or 30 seconds and you're just wasting your time because it's information overload and people look out the window very quickly, so you got to get good and we practice this and succinctly wrapping up a movement in three or four cues, and maybe even 15 seconds is fine. We say 10% of the learning comes from that initial explanation, about 30% of the learning comes in the warmup, because you can say okay, let's do squats, knees, our shoulders, back push ups, you can go through the movements that engage your core, you talk about all that during the warmup.

Will:  

I completely agree. Like in an equipment class, like like yours, and you can talk a bit more about kind of exactly what that class is,, but there's probably a couple of key safety things or things that a new person or a person that hadn't used that equipment, many times wouldn't know that you need to know, like, I don't know, like a yoke carry in a strongman class, you need to know where on your shoulders to put it. But in terms of like how to brace your core and bending your knees and dropping down to a squat that should be dealt with, I think in the warm up completely.

Jack  

Well it's even little things like do this, do this, don't do that don't do that you're not giving like eight cues for one exercise. And again, it's information overload, it actually has a detrimental effects that it becomes more confusing, and there's too much thinking about so what you know, we've worked on kind of getting that balance, where we get out the important stuff that you need to know, but don't go too deep. Having them physically do the movements is 30% of the learning around that. And we say 60% of the learning comes from in the class, making sure they're doing it right when we actually get them show exactly. And if we know those two newcomers, we can put them on the same station or we can put near each other and enables a group class instructor then to give that 60% what I find is that it's often flips they spend ages setting up and they waffle on and on and on about all the movements. And as soon as the class starts, it's every man and woman for themselves, you know, terrible form all over the place, and they just kind of let it ride. So we talk about kind of flipping that on its head. You know, again, if you have 10 regulars, you really don't need to spend very long at all and like yourself, you might have everybody else just like come on, let's get on with it, I'm here to work out, then we have the warm up. And we have a set specific way that that's done. Although we do give the coaches a lot of flexibility that is 60 seconds until the class starts. If you get all of that, right, you know, the explanation, the stuff before the class, the programming, once the class is started, it should flow well. And it should flow naturally. If we go all the way back to step one, if you came 10 minutes before the class and you were rushing around like a mad thing, you got the program a little bit wrong, you didn't get to introduce meet the new omerse

Will:  

You didn't put the equipment up in the right place. So when they go to use it, they have you have to run over and like bring the weights...

Jack  

So all of that stuff, you know, you thought there was gonna be five people, but 15 people walks in at the last minute, you know, all of this stuff. And suddenly, everything else gets harder, and you're kind of playing catch up. So we're like, Look, you want to do a great job in the industry, we want you to be industry leading coaches, you want to help impact these 15 people in the best possible way. So this is why we do what we do. It's not about you better be here 20 minutes before, that's the rules of base and you better follow it, we want them to understand why that's so important. So it's those initial stages that we really, really hammer, the actual main class, that's when we kind of have to get their friends in a little bit and do practice classes we do with the front desk team, which is always cool. It's always a bit of a celebration. And we started to practice a little bit like some of the coaches that they might have to go through in the class. So that's kind of very roughly our process. So we go through that. And then we kind of troubleshoot as we go along. And sometimes we do some one to one work if someone's struggling to, you know, wrap movements up quickly, obese things enough, or if they're perhaps struggling with confidence. So as I said, each wave of coaches that come in, we tweak it, we refine it, and we're quite happy with where we're at with it now.

Will:  

And so what are your so I think like, obviously, you will, quality assured, and I'm sure you have sort of managers within your clubs that will sort of go in mystery shop classes, just to make sure it's all going well, for the people that are listening to this podcast that may not get a lot of feedback from, they might teach in the community, so therefore they're kind of self managing or they might teach a gym where they have a group fitness manager, but they're really just a coordinator, they don't really provide any any ongoing guidance. What do you recommend? Or do you recommend that your instructors do anything for self improvement and self reflection? So not so much learning from other people or people within the within your club? But what are your instructors do for themselves to make themselves better?

Jack  

Yeah, great question. So we build in a lot of feedback into the process. And it's, again, one of our values that Base is two way feedback and communication, that's a big value of ours at Base. So we tell them at the beginning, you're going to be getting a lot of feedback, a lot of it's going to be constructive. Well, yeah, you know, we're gonna tell you what you're not doing well, but how to make it better, just just be ready for that, be prepared for that. And again, sort of saying the expectations is a way that again, you can see quickly, if they're really not open to feedback, I've done trial. So if we go back, again, a step sorry, or a few steps, we always have our instructors do a trial training session. So if they're brand new in the industry, but they're just doing their qualifications, we might have them just do an easy personal training session with one of our front desk staff, something super basic. And so we can kind of see Oh, yeah, that's probably a crucial part that I missed out. So we get to see how they interact with people. But then also, we get to see how they take feedback. You know, it's very unusual there. And again, that this would also work for the experienced coach, because you know, that's a big value of ours, sometimes experienced coaches don't want to hear it as much. So the experienced coaches that I've worked with have been fantastic. When I gave them feedback at the end of their trial session, you know, constructive feedback, or maybe we do a bit differently here at base, they've been really open to receiving that. So we've got a good idea already, that they're going to be ready and open to that feedback. You know, we talk a lot about the importance of connecting with clients, you know, hanging around after the session. And again, it's not something we want to sort of put a time limit on, we want our coaches to want to do that, you know, make friends with the clients get talking to them, like see if there's, anything that you can improve on, see if they have any feedback on your classes is good. But they've got a very, very strong feedback loop through the team, you know, a lot of our staff do classes. So they do feedback as well. And I think we're fortunate that we have a lot of clients that are quite vocal and happy to express their opinions openly and freely. 

Will:  

So I guess they get their classpass consolidated feedback. And they're all...

Jack  

Absolutely, yeah, they get the stars and they get the the I just find the comments are often more useful than the stars. All our instructors are, like 4.8, 4.9. So sometimes hard a little bit to differentiate. But it was the comments, really, I think that that really helps. You know, they commented specifically. And it wasn't always instructed, sometimes it's oh it's always too busy or something like that and that's always good feedback to get. But again,

Will:  

I had a five star rating on classpass. And then I got a one star because they got the wrong size shoes, and they couldn't get them clipped into the bike. And it brought my,, my average down. I'm like, oh, man, that's so annoying. It wasn't my fault.

Jack  

Well, actually, when we investigated into those low ratings, often it has been something like that, or sometimes they come late for the class, and they don't get let in. And now they've given this person one star, so that kind of manipulates the averages a bit. 

Will:  

Yeah, totally. Sorry, I took I completely made it all about me for a second.

Jack  

So feedback. It's a big value of ours, you know, we, we want people that are naturally going to seek it out. Anyway. And again, what we're trying to frame it for new coaches is because I know in a way, they're a little bit nervous when I join the class, and Jeff, our fitness manager as well, I know that they know that. Absolutely joining the class. And they know I'm going to have a chat with them afterwards. And I'm going to give them all the feedback. But the way I was framing it is like Well, obviously always make it constructive. Like, obviously, right? Like this is how it could be better. This is the stuff you did well, all the usual sort of corporate stuff that you do. But I also say, look, I didn't get this, when I joined the industry, this is going to accelerate you so fast. And I see that you've come so far, there are still things to work on, but man you are a month into your group plus training career. And this is already looking like a great class, you're connecting with people, the programming is good. But there are some things to tidy up. And there are some things that can improve. And we kind of I try and sell that process to them a little bit like to be happy that you have this feedback. So I know they still can. And they still maybe don't quite look forward to the end of the class when I pull it over. But I know they do value it, you know, and I know they do see that as an opportunity to get better. Another feedback loop we have is people talking to front desk. And that, again, is where everything kind of weaves in together. This reminds me a lot of the consultation call I had today because we talked a lot about this kind of an ecosystem. But when your front desk staff connects with the clients coming in, the clients get maybe not comfortable talking to the coach, especially if they don't know them. They get comfortable feeding back to the front desk team. And then you know, they would let me know or the fitness manager now and again, that just that helps us make that group class coach better. Yeah. So yeah, lots of different ways. You know, surveys, we send out quarterly as well. So that's another avenue where people are quite open and honest. But there's a lot in there that we do. And then we kind of yeah, to answer your question directly, we kind of create that culture where they want the feedback.

Will:  

Yeah, it's a difficult thing to want because sometimes feedback can be can be tough, right? But I think that the reality is and we've definitely seen this since the pandemic is that if you want a career in fitness, you need to be focused around what you're delivering to to the customer. And, like you can't guarantee that a gym or a studio is going to continue to want your services if you're not having that customer centric focus. And I mean, this is something I've learned over decades in the industry, because I genuinely and I've said this before on the podcast, at 18, and 19, I got into teaching because I wanted to be the star on the stage. In New Zealand, the studios have, you know, 100% capacities, and they have massive big rock rock star stages. And sound sounds awesome. I wanted to be at the center of that, and, and over two decades, I'm still in the industry, because I've got gotten past that. And now I'm much more focused on the people in my classes. But it's just so important for longevity in your career, to get comfortable with requesting feedback, and creating a culture within yourself to want to understand what you could do better, because there was always something, there's one thing that I really miss being kind of running my own company is that people are reticent to give me feedback, because I guess I'm the boss, whereas I had something I miss, like it was a great thing about working for Les Mills, and going down to New Zealand and doing those DVDs is that well, back in the day, that ages me, is that you would go and you would have a program coach, and they will give you pretty pretty like direct feedback for a five day period and make you better. And it didn't always feel good. But it always made me better.

Jack  

Yeah, I'll turn the tables a little bit. I mean, how do you get that now? How do you receive feedback and make sure that you get it as a business owner?

Will:  

Yeah, so I do, like, I watch back. So most of the stuff I do at the moment, because I travel a lot, it tends to be videos, and I do a bit of digital teaching. And I always watch myself back. So I make a point to make sure that I watch every I watched back every digital product that I've done. So when we release it to I shift constructors, for example, but I watch it back kind of a month to six weeks after, so that I've forgotten the experience of it. And I can look a little bit more objectively, that's really easy for me, obviously, because we produce this content that then goes gets sent out and it's up on platforms. But one of the things I recommend to our instructors is that once a week, now that everyone's got a smartphone that has a video on it or or a computer, even if you're not teaching virtually just set it up and self record and then watch back, say a little snippet three to five minutes of your self teaching. And you know, you can vary it out. Sometimes you can watch your intro, sometimes you can watch your warmup, sometimes you can watch the the peak of a class or the middle of it, whatever. And just write down, you know, one thing you did well, and one thing you'd like to improve, and I keep it in a Google Doc, and I just look back. And if I'm continually needing to improve the same thing, then I know that that I need to dig in and put a bit more work into it. And that's kind of how I look at it as if I'm continually doing something wrong. Because you know, sometimes you can just have a have a bad class or say a dumb thing. And that's not something that you need to change. It's just, it just happens on the day. But if you're like I'm consistently talking too much, I'm consistently using this verbal tech, like I'm saying, hey, guys, let's do...and then repeating that all the time. And if you've got a record of it, you can actually change it. So that's that's how I do it and how I recommend our instructors do it.

Jack  

It's interesting hearing these things that you say, right, that's something that I've really tried. I used to be a lot worse with ums, and I'm definitely doing better at those now. But when I look back at the videos, it's like I said that phrase a little bit too much.

Will:  

I have a really bad habit of going "now", think, and then saying what it is. And when I was teaching for Les mills and the DVDs would go out to instructors around the world, and then I would travel I would hear instructors saying it back they'd be like instructors and body attack which is one of the format's I taught go, now, think and I'm like, oh god, I say that so much that people are thinking, but, you know, I don't know if it is necessarily bad, but I need to vary it up. I don't want to be known for saying the same thing every time and maybe there is a more impactful way I could deliver that information.

Jack  

Sometimes it's overthinking I think, you're over analyzing but sometimes you just say nothing too damn much. With our digital fitness actually we found that happened a lot more because, Base, once you get the class running, when it's mostly about going and coaching individually. Suddenly you've got a camera and your, it's different. You either talk too much. You don't talk enough. You say the same things again and again. Or one girl was just saying okay, a lot. So okay, so we're gonna do squats, okay. And it's like, in the end, we worked on it. And she kind of phased out but she would always slip back into that. 

Will:  

But this is why self reflection...And this is why like video, like, I think that videoing yourself is the single most important thing that you can do and watching yourself back because people can tell you you're saying it too much, but you don't know. And when you watch it when you watch your own video and you hear yourself saying the same thing over and over again, it's painful.  And then you actually change it. Because Yeah, 

Jack  

You kind of, can't unhear it when you're aware of it. And everytime you say it you're like, dammit. But yeah, that's the first step of making it better. But now I would absolutely agree. On that point. People sometimes ask me, because I do a fair bit of public speaking now if you know, how do you practice that? I used to hate public speaking, I was so nervous when I did my first group classes. And in school, I was the kid who just, you know, quickly said my peace and then passed the sheet on to like the next kid. But for me, the way that I got better was practicing and recording myself filming myself, giving seminars or giving speeches and then looking back at it, seeing what I did wrong, and then doing it again. And then I found that there was one nutritional seminar that I did. And I think I recorded it two or three times and looked back on that looks really good and natural, and you've got a bit confused there didn't make much sense there you waffled on. And then when I went to deliver, it felt really natural. And it was almost like a turning point for me. But it's a quite a lot of practice, and quite a lot of analysis to get there. Yeah, this podcast for sure, I will listen back and think, you know, how did I come across, and I listen to all the podcasts that I put out. And yeah, I absolutely agree. That's one of the best ways you can get better at something, it doesn't just happen, you got to kind of work on it.

Will:  

I was gonna mention this actually, at the end, when I get you to say how people can sort of follow up on on what you delivering and talk about your podcast. But when I listen to you talk, one of the things I noticed is that you don't say um, and you're really good at continuing on and not having those verbal stumbling blocks that I know that I still fall into. But it's good to hear that that was a thing that you had to work on. And train wasn't necessarily something that just came naturally, because I think I think I will never get there.

Jack  

Yeah, it definitely took me a while. When I first did the initial podcast, this first few episodes, I really had to script everything out. I couldn't no way do it off the cuff, I tried to do one. And this is where the feedback loop was great. I tried to do one with a few bullet points. I played it back to my girlfriend later and she was like, now that you've offered on it didn't really have much structure. And I was like damn. And so I really structured everything out and read bullet points forever, not not bullet points like whole paragraphs, I would sometimes deviate. But I really scripted out. This is only like three years ago. And I really needed to do that to produce what I considered good quality content, you know, three years on, I can just bullet point out and just roll with it, you know, and just look at the piece by piece and go through them. And it's I wrap it up fairly succinctly, you know, I might waffle on before, but now I can do it in two or three minutes before I go on to the next point, I keep those podcasts within 10 or 20 minutes. And I think doing this every week, has helped massively, like every single week for the last three years, I put out content every single Monday and listened back to it, got feedback from my friends. And I think that's that's really helped me become better.

Will:  

I think one of the things that instructors can fall into the trap, especially if the instructing is a full time job or as a significant part of their job is that they teach so many classes that when they're not teaching, they just don't have the energy to look back and review what they've been doing. But it is really the key way to become an expert in your field is to do self review, I did a little bit of consulting and review for one of the new fitness qualifications that's going into the gryffindors environment in the UK. And one of the feedback points I had for the for the course description, they've written out all the key skills and how that maps onto the Qualifications Framework was that nowhere in there did a talk about self reflection and using video to self reflect. And I think that given the technology we've got available to us, if you're not videoing yourself or recording yourself, one of the biggest tips I got from a colleague back in New Zealand beaven was voice record yourself teaching. And that will tell you if you're a repeater. And you don't need to worry about where you are and if the video actually captures you and all that sort of stuff. But it will tell you if you are monotonous it will tell you if you are talking too much. It will tell you if you are using tech words, it will tell you if you are not using enough up and down and all this sort of stuff. And it's just really easy to do stick your phone on voice memo and record your intro. And then listen to it back and doing that will make your intro better the next class and iterate on them, then it becomes something that you can do naturally.

Jack  

Yeah, absolutely agree. It's made me think of a coach this part of Base. She's also head of marketing as well. She's very involved in a lot of stuff we do. And she does our Thai language podcasts as well. Because we put out regular podcast for the build your base show, and she didn't want to look back. She didn't want to listen to it...

Will:  

Yeah, because you hate listeninng to your own voice. Like everybody does no matter...

Jack  

You got to get over that. Right? Yeah, just like get over it. And I think the more you hear your voice recorded, the more it just kind of sounds normal, but at first you're like, that's not how I sound is it, surely? But once you get over it, it's fine. And it sounds normal. Right? And I think I've really tried to teach her because we work very closely together the things that I've learned and what's really helped me because I know it's gonna really help her as well. So I push her, I kind of almost some force her to do these things sometimes, but it's for her own good and I know she really values the learning and development she's had for going through the same processes.

Will:  

So I think that that takes us to a really good point, which is to finish up this conversation. So overall, what I'm hearing from you is that individual focus and feedback, a culture of feedback and self improvement,, is kind of central to what you do at base and how you make your instructors great. Is that, is that fair? Is there anything else that you would add to sort of the special sauce of what you do?

Jack  

I think that's very fair. You know, we talk a lot about the process that you go through at base when you are delivering a group class. And the element that we added on afterwards was everything that goes on outside of the class, right, so that's hanging around our base afterwards, chatting to the clients, finding out a little bit about them, you know, sometimes real sort of groups of communities form. And that's obviously what we want is a boutique studio, that's really what makes boutique fitness great, I think. And that's what helps people feel better about coming to base and ultimately get healthier, fitter and stronger. And then all the stuff that you do on the social media side, we some people use that personal Instagram channel, for posting about base or some create a separate channel, if they want to keep their private lives separate. You know, we don't have anything that they must do. But we give a lot of suggestions and a lot of advice on how they can kind of build up that community and connect with people, you know, you can add people on Instagram, they can write their handle on the board, and then you add them and tag them afterwards, obviously getting their permission for all of it as well. And so we help coaches build that kind of personal brand, online and also offline and also build that helped them build that community within their sort of followers as well. And sometimes you've got great coaches that are a little bit shy, and they get all of that, right. But they're a little bit shy, and they struggle with that stuff outside. So we added that into our training as kind of like the missing link to bring it all together. And then ultimately, we found if you get that group class experience great. And again, that starts you know, when you're programming the class, maybe an hour a day before, right up to the time when you wrap up the class bang on time. Get that right, if you can combine that with the outside stuff as well, you've kind of got the dream combination.

Will:  

I agree, completely agree. So if our listeners would like to know more about base or listened to you more, because obviously we're talking about the venue, you've got a podcast, can you just tell them where they can find you. So what to look for, for your podcast and your studio?

Jack  

For the fitness related stuff I talked about today, Base Bangkok and that's .com or Instagram handle.

Will:  

We will link to all of this as well, obivously.

Jack  

Yeah, for my own stuff, Fitness Business Asia, we've got a goal of raising the standards of the fitness industry in Asia, but we do have a lot of listeners outside and reporting guests outside Asia, such as yourself, as well. So it's quite a well rounded perspective, which I think would help anyone in the fitness industry, but just Google fitness business, Asia, whack it into Apple, or Spotify, and we'll pop up top.

Will:  

Perfect. So Jack, thank you so much for joining us to talk about creating a high performing team of instructors, I'm sure that we will chat again, we didn't even touch on the situation in Thailand, which we're gonna pretend like that didn't happen, and a really good conversation that didn't involve COVID at all. So thank you very much for joining us. And good luck with continued growth with Base in the fitness industry in Thailand. 

Jack  

Appreciate it Will, and all the best for SH1FT. 

Will:  

Cheers. 

Will:  

So that was my chat with jack. I really hope you enjoyed it and noted down a couple of tips to improve your gryffindors experience. I love the point that jack made about personality styles, we often falsely put too much emphasis on the outgoing star type of personality, as these are the ones who shout the loudest and have seen the most. But in reality, some of the very best instructors are actually the opposite of this. We did a quiz a few months back to help instructors identify their unique style and embrace it. If you haven't done the quiz, I highly recommend you check it out. You can access this at www.gxsuperpower.com. And we'll also link to it in the show notes. The other point jack made that I think is so important is being open and hungry for feedback. constructive feedback can sometimes be really uncomfortable and scary. But I can promise you that you'll always learn and grow from it. If you're working in a gym or boutique feedback is likely quite easy to receive or request from your managers or other staff or customers. But if you're teaching for yourself out in the community, like many people listening to this podcast are, then it's on you to drive that feedback. If you're listening to this podcast and you think that you've got the feedback thing sorted, I would love to hear from you. So if you're an instructor and you currently get feedback from your classes, send me a message Tell me how you do it. And we'll cover this on a future podcast. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at Will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.