Cameron:

I love knowing when the hardest point in class is going to be. So if someone tells me, the hardest moment in this class is going to be from 9:25 to 9:30, then I know okay, I'm not feeling it today, but from 9:25 to 9:30, I'm going to crush it because they told me that's the hardest part of class. It just, it helps alleviate some of that, like pre-workout anxiety that participants have that instructors forget about, like, people are stressing out coming to your class, you know, especially cycling, it's, as we've said, for a long time it stages it's the dark, scary, boom, boom room. And if you've never walked in there, all you hear is loud music in the dark, and people walk out looking like drowned rats. And that's really intimidating. It's scary. So you've got to alleviate some of that, especially for the person that took that brave first step to walk into the room saying, okay, I can do this. Now you have to hold their hand and you have to do it in a way that doesn't make them feel ostracized.

Will:  

Hey, I'm Will Brereton, founder of Sh1ft Fitness. And this is Group Fitness Real Talk, a show about how to survive and even thrive in group fitness in 2021 and beyond. Unless you've been living under a rock, you have probably noticed the huge transformation of the indoor cycling sector over the last decade. Just a few years ago, peloton didn't exist. soulcycle was a crazy fad, and performance metrics were reserved for competitive cyclists. Flash forward to today and indoor cycling is everywhere. And there was a style for everyone. From dancing on a bike to hot out metrics and leaderboards. indoor cycling has evolved hugely. Today on the show, I'm interviewing the amazing Cameron Chinatti, who spent most of the last decade as Director of Education for stages cycling. Cameron started out her career in the performing arts, but soon found the love for fitness. And from there, she became a leading instructor, educator and thought leader in the teaching, and particularly the indoor cycling space. Cameron has trained 1000s of instructors and today she is sharing five incredible tips that will help you improve your teaching skills immediately. But trust me, these tips aren't just relevant if you're a cycling instructor. There's something that's here for every group fitness instructor to take on board. So whether you're a cycling instructor fanatic, or you have no interest in ever teaching on a bike, this episode is well worth a listen, as it's peppered with nuggets of pure gold, and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Welcome Cameron to the show. How are you?

Cameron  

I am great, Will. Thank you for having me.

Will:  

What time is it where you are?

Cameron  

It is 9:33pm where I am.

Will:  

Okay. So this evening, so it's mid afternoon where I am in New Zealand. Yes. Um, so once again, we're having sort of intercontinental group fitness conversations. As it should be. Absolutely. We're one big global family. So Cameron, one of the things I was really excited to have you on the show about is because you have just finished up with a very massive stage of your life, at Stages. And as one of the kind of preeminent indoor cycling brands out there, I thought it would be a fantastic time for you to tell us a little bit about what you learned during your time there. And then at the end of the show, talk more about what you're getting into now, because it's a really interesting space that you're getting into. So for the people that might not have met you before, why don't you give a quick intro into how you ended up at stages, because I was I was doing a little bit of research into you and I saw that you're actually a vocalist and I thought that was really interesting. So tell me how you went from from that to indoor cycling.

Cameron  

Oh, my goodness, how much time we got? Yes, well, so like many people in group exercise, I had my beginnings in the performing arts. So I did. Oh, my goodness. I did a stint as a performer for Royal Caribbean cruise lines. I toured with a band, a 13 person funk band. I met my husband singing in a vocal jazz acapella group. That was definitely the the majority of my time in my 20s. And I majored in opera performance. You might need at some point in your life to list on your CV. But while I was doing that, I was always in fitness. So like your, like a lot of your guests, I started teaching when I was 18 years old and university. It was one of those deals where I I took a fitness class and went, oh, I can do that. And a bunch of my Performing Arts friends did the same. And then as soon as I started teaching, I knew that that was something I was probably going to continue doing for, you know, the vast majority of my life and so way, shape or form, but I really didn't think it was going to be a career move at that point in time. I thought I was gonna be a rock star. And that was just you know, that's kind of the conservatory method. When you go to school, you know, your choices are like Broadway, musical theater, opera, and I went to a school that had a very strong vocal jazz program. And that was why I chose to go there. And as it turns out, you have to major in the more legit practices of opera performance. So I did jazz as my emphasis as it were, and business minor at the same time really thinking, Oh, I won't need that. Because again, I'm gonna be a rock star. And, and I did have a good stint at being a rock star. It was fun. And in fact, like a lot of instructors, I know that there are so many things from that life that I learned, you know, stage craft, obviously. But I tell this to a lot of people jazz, in particular, improvisation, which was something that I loved and I'm still really passionate about, improv teaches you to be really fast on your feet. In fact, you're thinking ahead, two beats, four beats, eight, eight beats ahead of everybody else, and thinking of what might happen. And I really do feel that that skill, not just in performing, but in life and in business is hugely important. Because sometimes you get put, you know, under fire under pressure, and knowing how to perform in that know that it's just as our friend Shannon would say it's Yes, And...

Will:  

as regulars of the podcast, remember, this is the year of "And"...

Cameron  

But but that's improv. Yeah, and so that really, that really, that was that was huge. So skipping a lot of filler, I guess I would say, I got introduced to stages, again by our mutual friend, Shannon. And I was performing. And in fact, I was living in Nashville, Tennessee. So I was doing session musician work, which is a totally different deal where you're, you just show up and you sing a jingle and then you get a check and walk away. Yeah. So I was doing some of that I was flying back and forth between Colorado. So in the for your global listeners, Colorado is like middle of the country. More on the west hand side. And Nashville, Tennessee is middle of the country more on the right hand side, but it's still like two and a half hour flight. So I was flying back and forth between the two to perform with a large funk band. So I was like a pickup singer and bandleader for them. And I would do a weekend show and then I would come back to Nashville. And I would do fitness things. And, and at the time I was actually I was working as an employee number one, but really contractor number one of Wexer in the early days of Wexer. So so I was doing that which was great fun, had no idea what I was doing as the Content Manager but was loving it. And then yeah, gigging and doing contract work for other fitness manufacturers. So some things for bozhou some things for gliding, and savier and poor pole and all these random small pieces of equipment that people probably don't know about anymore. And I was just writing curriculums on the side and presenting at, you know, at the regional level, really, and so, and then gigging at night.

Will:  

How did you end up getting into writing those curriculums, curricula? Is that...

Cameron  

Yeah, it really, you know, it's as as is often in these in our space, it's it's who you know, and I happened to have some really just good contacts. You know, we've mentioned her once or twice, yes. Again, Shannon Fable and June Con in the Pilates space and just having those people as friends and mentors, and you know, recognizing, hey, Cameron, can you do a side project and side project turns out well, also you get another side project? And then yes, and another, and another and yeah, one thing led to another and really, I was just always doing both I was on these parallel tracks. It was truly like, fitness by day, music by night and the wee hours of the night.

Will:  

It must have been tiring.

Cameron  

It is. I'm a night owl, so...But yes, fast forward. So I was doing that I was doing a ton of music, I was starting to get a little burned out on the scene. Really just the fact that the two in many ways, or at least how I saw them at the time weren't congruent with one another. So there's some shady things that happen in the music world late at night, and I was trying to live a healthy, happy lifestyle. And it was around that time of some things getting particularly shady that I was like, yeah, I think I need to like just call it quits for a while with music, which turned out to be a really good thing, because the next really like day after I made that decision was when I met Pat Warner, who is the senior vice president of product for stages. And at the time, there was four people that made up stages actually worked for in Boulder, and then another like three or four in Portland, Oregon.

Will:  

And so for those people who might not be cycling instructors, do you just want to give a kind of brief outline of what Stages is as a company?

Cameron  

Yeah. So it's funny because when I started, I want to say I was a little skeptical because I knew this was another indoor cycling manufacturer, and stepping into the scene that would make stages the seventh indoor cycling manufacturer that was like really like the major scene for not, you know, we're not counting all the extra weird things that you find...Yeah, like Schwinn and Star Trek and Technogym and, you know, pre-core and ICG, you know, and Kaiser, you know. They're, really, we were like, number seven. And at the time, I was thinking, like, does the world need another indoor cycling bike? Truly that's, that's what I was thinking, what can be possibly so different about it? Yeah. And then after I met them and realized their area of expertise, all being cyclists, like road cyclists, and, and having a wide range of experience in manufacturing, and strength equipment as well, I mean, like that team made Select Tech dumbbells and the Bowflex and a bunch of other things that are like still staples in the, in the fitness scene. When I saw what they were doing with how they measured power output on a bike. That's when I really started to get interested to say, Ah, okay, this is legit, what they're doing. And I think the way in which they're doing it is going to make it more applicable to indoor cycling instructors than it had been in the past.

Will:  

Yeah, for sure. And I like I have to say that the Stages bike is probably my favorite to ride on like it. The thing I like, is that like the two knobs, now you've got the head, like, what do you call them? What's the technical term for them, you have that so

Cameron  

So we have regular traditional resistance style, and then we have the sprint shift.

Will:  

Exactly.

Cameron  

And the sprint shift being macro adjustment. So for those of you that have an indoor cycling bike, and you're doing say like a Tabata Workout, you know that in order to go on for those 20 seconds, it's dial, dial, dial, dial, dial to the right. And then to go back off for the 10 seconds, it's dial, dial, dial dial, spend tons of time dialing. So with the sprint shift, it's really like a macro adjustment. So you preset your resistance with the dial, and then that sprint shift can move into one of three positions. And if you move it all the way to the right, you get, it's like you're hitting a brick wall, but by design, and it's great. It's great for Tabata, it's great for HIIT workouts, and it's just great for setting something for a repeat interval. And then coming back to it.

Will:  

And I love it. I'm a bit of a, a sort of cycle connoisseur, I have a body bike in my flat. And that's because my flat in Paris is tiny. And a body bike is I think, a really solid bike. And it is fantastic for where we have it in the kitchen because it doesn't take up too much space. And it's like fully locked out. And you don't have to worry about sweat getting in the mechanics and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, if I'm going to be riding on something at a club, Stage's is the bike I like. Mainly for that thing, just because I like to be able to crank it and then crank it back and crank it up. Was a feature of the bike right from the start?

Cameron  

So we actually, when we started, Stages was actually manufacturing bikes for free motion. So on the free motion bike, the S11 series, there was no sprint shift at the time. But that's when we did introduce several key features and componentry during the free motion time that have stuck with the stages by quake the carbon fiber tubes built some of the console features and things like that. Sprint shift came in 2015.

Will:  

Okay, okay, so relatively recent.

Cameron  

Yeah, sure. It's all relative. Right. 

Will:  

So, we've segwayed into product, but I want to hear more about your journey. So tell me when you came on stages, what was the what was the first role that you were doing?

Cameron  

Well, yeah, I thought I was just gonna be hired gun. Like all the other gigs that I'd had. I was being hired to write a curriculum for training with power. And so what I was tasked with was, you know, we, we know that some instructors know about What it means to train with power and train with a power meter and have that data, that information. But we haven't really seen it yet in a practical hands on kind of way that instructors see the value in it. So there were people doing power training. Schwinn was doing power training at the time, Kaiser was probably the first to do power training. It just, it wasn't sticky yet. And the instructor market and I think it was really because it was a new technology. And they just didn't see like, what is, is talking about numbers, what

Will:  

Yeah, the idea of metrics hadn't quite hadn't quite taken off, right? Like, I feel like now everything and you know, with Apple watches and fitbits, and on rings, and all these sorts of stuff, like we are getting to the point where and I just do it with my with my iPhone, like I flip it up and see how many steps I've done every day, just to make sure that I'm doing it. I haven't quite made the jump to Apple Watch yet. But I'm not I'm not sort of wearing any type of jewelry or adornments person. And so that's a step I just can't take. But anyway, I digress. We're so used to measuring everything we do now. But that was quite a, but at that point, sort of, you know, four or five years ago, maybe a little bit longer. People

Cameron  

This is 2011. Yeah, we were not in that wearable. We were not in the quantifiable self movement yet. It just, it wasn't I mean, I had to bring calculators, like plastic calculators to trainings, to show people the math behind the scene, because they didn't have not everyone had a smartphone, that could have a calculator on it. Just think about how far we have come in that period of time. It's amazing.

Will:  

For sure. And I like I think it's even, it's probably more unusual to get on a bike that doesn't have some kind of metrics and power output meter, then it is to find one, whereas so that's a complete flip. Right? Because I think 10 years ago would have been the reverse, you would have been much, it would have been quite unlikely unless you were training on a Kaiser at a place that specifically did that type of training in the UK for sure. Like Kaiser was the one that had the had the metrics before anybody else did.

Cameron  

Yeah. And you'd be lucky to have cadence, you know, that was probably the first metric that was shown was cadence and time. And and then you were lucky to have that. But now even customers that stages has that I would say don't call themselves like metrics junkies, like let's say it's a rhythm type of cycling, even those customers will often get the power meter, and not the console or the head unit, because they want to get post ride emails sent to their customers that say how many calories they burned. You know what that equivalent was in cheeseburgers or whatever customized email they want to send out. That's pretty standardized across most boutiques and operators now. 

Will:  

And I have to say I'm a convert on this part. So I don't like, I prefer so if we take like cycling, we'll talk more about this later. But we split it into kind of two broad categories, which is performance and rhythm, let's say or sort of performance as in cycling performance and output etc. and rhythm. I don't like performance, because when I go to a performance class, I kill myself. And I can't walk for the following day because I'm very, very competitive. And sometimes in the cycle studio, because I like it's my time to like do group fitness for me, I just like to lose myself in the music and go to a studio that has you know, like a Soul Cycle kind of vibe or one rebel if you're in the UK. And so I didn't get the power meter with my body bike. And I really regret it because now I just want to know how many calories I've been sometimes even just putting on my playlist and not actually actively trying to hit a certain target. I do like having that information at the end of it because I'm just so used to it and every other facet of my life.

Will:  

And flipside to that, as an instructor, if you teach a lot of classes a week, the power meter is your, it's your key to not overdoing it when you get excited. You've got a pumped up class, and you look down and you can see that your average wattage is let's say like 20 watts higher than normal, you know, I have to teach tomorrow.

Will:  

Yeah, I'm gonna be blowing out by the end of the class.

Cameron  

It's such a good honesty meter for both sides of that. Honesty, and that, oh, you're sandbagging. You need to go harder. And honest in, ooh, this is too much. And even though I feel like a million bucks right now, I've got a stacked week and I need to save it. It's a great tool for both those purposes. 

Will:  

So you're at stages, you are focusing on how to bring this type of understanding into the cycling instructor market. Where to from there just by telling you about some of the kind of trainings and the products that you were working with.

Cameron  

Oh my gosh, we've done so many fun things. So So let's see, I was a contractor for about a year and like three months, then I got hired on full time to run the education department. So Director of Education which is a role that I continued to maintain up until last week. Yeah, so, so running education and really seeing that not only, you know, instructors at all of our key accounts had opportunities for for training and in like the traditional certification format with with C, C's or cpds, as you guys call them, so making sure that they had those, but also making sure that our distributors understood the product that was really like the first five years, quite honestly, was getting distributors to understand the difference in what it was that they were selling our sales reps that were internal to stages, like really just preaching the message to everybody that would listen, what's different about this? What is this going to change in terms of customer experience, overall, then it was about scaling that operation. So bringing on master educators one at a time, in different parts of the globe. So you know, first being that we're a Boulder, Colorado, USA company, starting in the United States, but very quickly spinning that up to, you know, the UK market to Germany, Spain, Australia, South Africa, I mean, all over the place, and in a really short period of time. So I would say by probably like, 20, I don't know 2015-2016, I wasn't doing the bulk of the travel anymore, thank goodness, because now at this point, I had one, one small one with a second small one on the way. But But I had an army now at this point. So you know, they were amazing educators all over the globe, that understood exactly what we did. And we focused predominantly on again, that aspect of how do you teach a good class with a power meter, and still keep that persona that you've been working on all this time, so you don't turn into just a regular human computer? Right? You don't want to be that you still have to have the pizazz, and and own the stagecraft piece. So then

Will:  

Yeah right, because you're coming from a performing arts performing performing artists background, right. And so now you're going into what had been quite a sort of performance on the bike genre, and adding metrics to it. So that's quite like the almost the opposite of kind of where you are, where your upbringing and education came from. Right?

Cameron  

I mean, I will say, though, anyone that knows me, well knows that I'm a super geek, like big time, Like, I, I've always liked the idea of quantified self, even before it was really a thing. I've always tracked, kind of everything. And I like cycling outside, too. I mean, I will say I am first and foremost, an indoor cyclist, yeah. But I also really enjoy getting into the great outdoors and all the gear that goes with that. I like building bikes, I like building stuff, product software, you name it. So I will embrace that side of it. But I recognize that as soon as you start throwing in a lot of these new technologies, it can turn the performer into the deer in headlights.

Will:  

Totally. And this is this is something that I think is so cycling, cycling, instructors are going to be lapping this up, I'm, I'm sure. But there's other instructors out there who maybe don't teach a cycle format that will completely understand this particular element, because they have been thrown into teaching online, thrown into teaching virtually, and they are suddenly at that point where they're trying to manage a new technology, and still deliver the same type of teaching performance off the bike that they were doing beforehand. And it's tough, right? Like, it's like trying to train your brain to think about something new whilst also holding on to the charisma that you had and doing the classes that you took before.

Cameron  

And I'm pretty convinced that those two halves of your brain can't fully engage at the same time. They have to. In this day and age, they have to I mean, it's so funny, like back in 2006, I was teaching this like technology 101 workshop on the conference circuit and nobody cared. I mean, like,

Will:  

what were you what were the what were the topics?

Cameron  

Oh my gosh, it was like this is signal flow. This is the difference between distortion and Oh, so it was like, Oh, totally, it was like audio nerding out, but it was stuff that, that if you didn't have someone or you didn't have a good rack setup at your club, you should know that stuff. So you can fix it on the fly and not have your class, you know, tank because of it. But no one really cared. But then back, you know, full circle now it's like, I mean, everyone realizes, oh, I have to know this stuff. Yeah, yeah. But I will say it's hard as a performer when you're in show mode, and you're like, tunnel vision really focused. Even myself. I find that I can't troubleshoot the way that I can when I'm the back of house person. So when I get to wear the black shirt, and I get to be like stage manager. Yeah, I can,, I can troubleshoot anything, but you know, told me that it's time for sequins and performance. And like, I forget.

Will:  

I have that whenever anything goes wrong. And when I have to think about anything technical, you get that kind of time dilation effect where like, the people are watching you, and you realize that the CD has stopped in the old days or that you know, or that they can't see you on your camera and you feel just time just goes more on drags out. And you're, like freaking out because you want to get this thing fixed. And you're thinking, Oh, god, oh, god, this is terrible. It's lasted so long. And in the minds of your participants, they're just getting a drink of water. Like, they're fine with it. It is not that bad to them.

Cameron  

That, it's so true. And yeah, that's, that's really amazing advice right now. Like, take a breath in, take your breath out and realize that the only person that's panicking right now, is you so don't show it. 

Will:  

And no one else is experiencing this as to be as painful and drawn out as you are.

Cameron  

That that is the truth. That's, that's performance right there. But yes, let's see where we're at. So yeah, working on curriculums that were really power based, but starting to bring the performance piece back into the fold. And I would say at this time, now we're talking like, circa 2018, where the boutiques are just slamming, right, like this is the boutiques are starting to run the show when it comes to recognition of indoor cycling. So that

Will:  

They're the ones that are kind of getting the majority of the market and all that sort of all the majority, the marketing and the eyeballs.

Cameron  

Yeah. And you know, it was so fantastic. Like, this is just a great example of all ships rise. I mean, I would be sitting on a plane. And if someone had asked me in 2011, what I did, they'd be like, wait, you, you sit on a bike that doesn't go anywhere? And then you tell people how to do it. Yeah. And then circa 2018, they go, oh, like peloton, right? So they know, there's recognition, they get it. And it makes all things so much easier. And so you know, we can say kudos to them, because they did raise the recognition factor and the bar for everyone. And that's great. So we then launched a beat certification around that time, and this was truly like, just how do you ride to the rhythm stages has never really advocated for a lot of movement on the bike, you know, tap backs and things of that nature, although, like I kind of, I can go into either camp on that. I think if you

Will:  

See, I have a few on tap backs as a guy, which is that they are painful. There are a lot more tap backs in a girls class, than there are in a boys class. 

Cameron  

I mean, do I think it's gonna make you better at cycling? Absolutely not. No. Is it going to make you feel like you're doing something for 60 minutes that maybe you don't like doing? And it's changing it up enough to distract you? Possibly? Will it make you better at tap backs, if you have to do more tap backs in the future? Probably. Yeah. So it's it's specificity of training, right?

Will:  

Yeah, totally. That is exercise principles 101.

Will:  

You probably should practice tap backs. Do I want to do them? No, not really. So, so we don't really we talk about them, we address them in our training. But it's really more about the basics of music, because so many instructors, maybe they feel this 32 count phrase, or they feel verse chorus, but they don't actually know the musicality piece behind it. And giving them just some real basics around what makes music and what are the hints that you can hear and the turnaround of a song, you know, just some some basic things to help people be more impactful when they get this so

Will:  

And this is so that they can freestyle or teach create their own choreography to the music that they choose?

Cameron  

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And then we've done other hybrid things that are kind of a melding of those two worlds. So you know, if you use metrics, and you're more of a coach approach, but you also are musical, I originally called this the UK method, because this to me was standard in the UK was, things always happen on musical moments, verse chorus, when the beat drops, that's not always the case in the United States. But it is always the case in the UK, right for a good instructor

Will:  

I can't think you're doing it any other way.

Cameron  

So things happen on musical moments. But you can also do those things on musical moments with metrics. So, you know, you all give like a simple example being like, you know, there's two choruses, they're the same length and time, let's look at what your average power output was the chorus one and let's beat it on course number two. And it takes, you know, a skillful brain to be able to wrap your head around those two things, but man when you do, you know and throw group display in there with that and you've got yourself on magical experience.

Will:  

I have to say that the one thing in a cycling class that I cannot stand is when and like, but no offense to anyone who does this, but just it's just me, when there is a, like a really great banging track, and they're like, we're gonna cycle for one minute. And then at like, the night at the 52 second mark, the music picks up and they just refuse to acknowledge it and go for 10 more seconds and then change to standing. And I'm like, no. And I'm like, standing up for trying at the back. Because I'm like, I can't not go with this beat. But why are you doing this to me?

Cameron  

Oh, my gosh, will you would have loved there was this fantastic presentation that we did on the conference circuit for a few years. That was it was effectively like the duality of like the power coach person that doesn't hear any music at all. And then the party princess that has no purpose to her class. Yeah. And the two of our our master educators would actually like fight on stage. And we wouldn't tell anybody, like this was they were in character from the moment they would be on stage. So the person that played like, we called it Power Paul, or Power Patty would be like in full kit with like, gels and shorts. Yeah. Like, I mean, full on, and then they would just get on and be like, Okay, let's do this, we've got four and a half minutes at threshold, ready to go. And these are like national conferences. Yeah. And people start to walk out, like leave the session, we would have people at the door, standing by being like, wait, don't leave, it's part of the act, it's part of the act, go back in. And then you know, then our, our Rhythm Rita would come on, and she would do like, you know, she's doing her Woohoo, words from Ah, she's doing it to the beat. And she's fun, but there's no substance. And eventually, they start teaching each other, like, the valuable things that the to bring. So, you know, there's a purpose with the coach approach. And there's, there's fun and there's musicality with the rhythm approach. And by the end, they blend their two methods together, and it was hands down the most popular session that we've ever done. Yeah, it's so fun.

Will:  

I actually, so I obviously come from a Les Mills background, I started teaching RPM, and I don't know 2000. It was RPM, like maybe 10. So it was like super early on. But in the in the kind of late, so I think I know, 2005-2006 they integrated a really good training, which was around, it was all musical, but it was very much like, okay, we're going to stand and we're going to push and using time time, seconds and time codes to tell people how long they were going to be working hard for. And the key thing was that, like, it doesn't have to be 20 seconds, it like it can be 18 seconds, if the BPM is there. Just go with it, but give it giving some elements of time so that they can understand how they should be working. And this was before this was kind of like before you said 2011 before they were power meters on the bikes, but giving them kind of some internal metrics, which was time that they could work to, like you're going to push it, you know, you know, perceived rate of exertion for 20 seconds was really, really helpful for people enjoying the music, enjoying the class, but also getting a bit of workout and feeling like that achieve more themselves during the class.

Cameron  

Yeah, it's huge. And that's a lot to think about. Like as an instructor, you know, if you come from a coach background, and you're like four by four minute hill repeats, go, you know. You're you're thinking of time, but but to be able to step back and say, Okay, I'm still gonna give them enough work, I'm still gonna give them enough recovery. But I'm just going to nudge things around so that the whole group can feel this sense of, you know, unity through movement like that, that takes them next level instructor Really? Yeah.

Will:  

Uh, you know, you're probably right. I think I sometimes I forget. And I think sometimes, many of the people that listen to this podcast will actually forget how much they have learned and how things that are now come to them quite naturally that didn't before. And conversely, people that are coming new into teaching, probably see some of the things that other instructors do and just think, how did I manage to, like, do all of that at the same time and not not skip a beat? But sometimes we need to give ourselves more credit for the stuff that we've learned along the way. Right.

Cameron  

It's, it's bananas. I mean, think about it. Like one you're not afraid of public speaking. Yeah. Okay. So you've already taken out most of the population, you're not afraid of public speaking, sweaty, in tight clothes with a microphone on your face. That's like four things. You're, you're not, you're talking exercise. You're leading a class, which would be like a lecture like a college professors lecture. You're doing it while you can't breathe, and you're being creative and you're reinventing yourself over and over again. And you have a nice outfit and you bought new music and new shoes. I mean, the the scope of what the job entails.

Will:  

Yeah.

Cameron  

It's crazy, like, think about what the resume would be like if you spelling out each and every one of the job requirements. It's It's not easy to find people that can pull that off.

Will:  

Yeah, and and you're doing it and in that cycle context, you're doing it in within like a very, very narrow realm of physical physical performance and stuck to a couple of pedals. Maybe you get off a little bit, maybe you don't, but you are, you are in one place. And you're having to take the class on a journey from reggae to rock to house to whatever, whatever style of music you're choosing to play. If you are, that rhythmic.

Cameron  

It could be the best 45 minutes of someone's life. And it could also be the longest most excruciating 45 minutes of someone's life. So. No pressure.

Will:  

Okay, good. So no pressure, it's about all the basics and a little bit of a little bit of your, your experience. What I would love is for you as someone who is an expert in the field of indoor cycling, to give our listeners some tips on sort of the like, and you can choose to give your top tips to or your top tips to avoid. But what are some of the top teaching tips that you have learned from a decade spent at the top of the indoor cycling world?

Cameron  

Hmm, okay.

Will:  

Big questions.

Cameron  

I think okay, so number one, I would say, pick a lane and stick to it. So I probably wouldn't have said that, like five years ago. But you've talked about this in other podcasts. And I see this everywhere in the industry, mind you, but the niching down of everything is happening. So what used to just be blanket indoor cycling, then turned into freestyle and pre choreographed. And now amongst those, you've got all these varied niches, and we've talked about some of them, you've got, you're going to be a coach, and you're going to teach with a power meter, it's you're going to be more informational in your delivery. Or maybe you're going to be a rhythm instructor, and you're going to teach to the beat, it's going to be verse chorus, you're gonna spend probably more time on your playlist than your plan, but not always. Or maybe you're going to be a hybrid of those things, whatever it is that you are, and you do own that, and really focus on being the best at that thing. And don't try to like, put on somebody else's clothes, and be that for the sake of having another class on the schedule, it's not, it's not worth it. So pick your lane and stick to it.

Will:  

You double the time, because like getting good at doing one of those things is really, really hard. And doing both of them just means that you're spending double the amount of time that you need to because there are like, like indoor cycling is a proven category that it always made me laugh, actually, you know how the American fitness association or I can't remember the acronym, but they release a trends report, you know, once a year where they do the top trends, and they have some things which are trends and fads. I think they they kind of slipped, and it cracks me up because I one of the fads or I can remember exactly what the word was, but indoor cycling was on there. And it had been on there. And this is when I was at Beachbody. So like 2013. And indoor cycling was recognizing where these fads rather than a trend. And I'm like, wait, what I mean, how we've been doing this for life, forever, yeah, for 17 years at this point. But I think that now, thanks to as you mentioned, peloton and all the other brands that have really well indoor cycling into the public consciousness, it is a genre that a lot of people like and there are a lot of people out there are going to who are going to come to it and you're not limiting yourself in the number of people you can attract by niching down to a specific type of of cycle because there are just people out there that you will be able to find and that will come to you because they like what you were doing.

Will:  

Yeah, and I mean, now that you don't have to represent another brand, you can be your own brand, you can go out and do it yourself. So you can go as niche as you want to. So if it is like every class, you are dressed in drag, and that is your shit. That's you. But, but someone's gonna say these are my people, I found them! And it's not gonna happen at a big box, right? Because they have to try to get as many people in as they can and be as let's just call it non offensive as they possibly can. You can be whatever you want. I mean, you can dress up. Like think of Comic Con and like some of these other conventions that you bring...

Will:  

You are a nerd...

Cameron  

But truly think about it. There are people for everything and they just need someone to say, I'll be your leader and I'll show you the way. So I would Yeah, I would say pick your lane and stick stick to it. And if you're representing yourself as an entrepreneurial and structure in the greater virtual space, like, own it and be who you are, and you'll come across so much more authentically than just trying to get another class in the schedule and you know, adding the other one.

Will:  

Okay, so tell me tell me next one.

Cameron  

Yeah, so that's number one. Okay, number two, this is now going back to like my technical background, and especially for new instructors, but write down your pre-game ritual, and get it in writing so that you can start to then do it the same every time. And so pregame ritual, especially when you've got a lot of tech involved, there's a lot of things you need to check before class starts. So all the all the things that no one tells you about as a new instructor, but you should know like, phone and do not disturb mode screen on, you know, full display at all times, so that it doesn't go dark on you. You know, just some of those little basics like doing your bike fit before anyone gets there, checking volumes on all devices, like know that pregame ritual and write it down. And then do it the same every single time.

Will:  

I fail on this one, because I'm one of those terrible instructors who can teach in the same studio every week, and I never remember what my bike is set to. I'm like, is it tall? Am I feeling tall today, am I feeling short today? I don't know. Like, how do I not know what my bike settings are? I'm here every week.

Cameron  

Different shoes, you know, you never know. I mean, I think it's so it's kind of like the you know, the airline stewards and stewardesses. Like they do their spiel exactly the same every time. Not just for them. But for you. Yeah, because you're likely to remember, hopefully, pieces of it for the frequent fliers, because you've heard it the same every time. So for your ownself think of it as a preflight checklist, where you're doing it the same, and you're less likely to run into problems with music, audio, video, Wi Fi, whatever, any of the the new technologies that you need to be responsible for, get that checklist and get it going and then share it with brand new instructors because they need it.

Will:  

Yeah. 100%. So next up, how many are we doing? 

Cameron  

We're gonna do five.

Will:  

Yes. I love five. nice, round nine. It's good. Okay, so number 3...

Cameron  

Yes. Number three. And this is going back to like the beginning of Stages. And what I have always felt is the key to a good class. And that is that every class should have a goal of some kind. And that goal should be stated at the beginning. So it doesn't need to be anything earth shattering, you know, I mean, some people get real crazy. And it's about like, you know, increasing threshold for every four minute repeat or whatever. It could be that. But it could be something as simple as by the time we hit the last working track, you're taking your last sip of water? Can you do it? And do it in the form of a question is generally my preference. Because when you ask people can you do X, Y, and Z by end of class or by mid-class, it causes them to think about whether or not they can, and it gives them some marker of success. You're like, okay, here's what success looks like today. And if they don't do it, that's fine, because you're going to give them more shots in the days and weeks to come. But it just makes it feel more like you've thought it out, rather than eh, I just threw on a playlist, and I'm just faking it, because I'm that good. There's no more faking it.

Will:  

Yeah, I agree. And I also like my personal favorite, and this may be a preference thing, but I think it whenever I hear an instructor do this, I feel that they are really prepared, and they know what they're doing, which is if they're doing it like section by section or track by track, they kind of give a race profile of what you're going to be seeing within that song or that track or that section of the class. And you and then when they stick to it, and you get to that I feel that there's a real professionality and you're being taken on a journey in a way that I find quite satisfying as a participant, because nowadays, I'm much more a participant in indoor cycling than I am, than I am a teacher and I saw I recognize these things and other people and they're having a plan from start to finish and their mini plans within the class is something that I really appreciate. 

Cameron  

Mm hmm. Oh, likewise, I mean, I, I love knowing when the hardest point in class is going to be. So if someone tells me, the hardest moment in this class is going to be from 9:25 to 9:30, then I know okay, I'm not feeling it today. But from 9:25 to 9:30. I'm going to crush it. Because they told me that's the hardest part of class. It just it helps alleviate some of that, like pre-workout anxiety that participants have that instructors forget about, like people are stressing out coming into your class, you know, especially cycling it's, as we've said for for a long time it stages it's the dark, scary boom, boom room. If you've never walked in there, all you hear is loud music in the dark, and people walk out looking like drowned rats. And that's really intimidating. It's scary. So you've got to alleviate some of that, especially for the person that took that brave first step, to walk into the room saying, okay, I can do this. Now you have to hold their hand, and you have to do it in a way that doesn't make them feel ostracized from the group 100. So information like that is really valuable. So they can, they can say, Okay, I got this, I got this.

Will:  

As someone that I'm used to enjoy a night out, and it's been well, obviously, none of us get that anymore. But as someone that used to enjoy a night out , that part of indoor cycling is actually my favorite going into a dark room, hearing loud music and leaving sweaty and tired. Reminds me of what I used to do on the weekends when I was young.

Cameron  

Yes, but you're a performer and you're a fitness person. And like, you know, think about the the people that think and again, this is something Pelaton has done such an amazing job with because you're in the context of your home, right. So there's less fear. But thinking that you have to be fit in order to do indoor cycling is probably the number one like misnomer that I hear about indoor cycling. Oh, I can't do it. Because you already have to be fit to do that. And it's so not true. Like, that's the place you should begin your cardio fat, your cardiovascular fitness journey, because it's low impact. You're, you're the boss, you don't know

Will:  

Yeah, you're in complete control of how hard you working...

Cameron  

And there's some anonymity there too, even, like, no one can see how hard you're working. So it should be the place to start. But for whatever reason, we've made it the scariest one of all, except for maybe like double step class. It's

Will:  

Oh, double step classes are definitely more scary.

Cameron  

It's just, it's scary for people. So we owe it to them to make it easy.

Will:  

You know, what I think it might also be is that I think that, you know, when when cycling first started out, it was very much a wanting to be in the spirit and the essence of cycling. And so people wore big shorts, and they wore stuff. And I remember like, that was quite exclusive. And if you're someone that's never worn cleats before, and like you don't know how to clip them in. And I see people when they come to a class and like they really, really struggle. And you can see, like as their foot gets more and more frantic, trying to get their foot into the clips, and you're like, Oh, no, I remember what it's like to be like this. And it is quite intimidating. I'm quite glad that we've broken that down and that cycling classes are not cycling classes anymore. They're much more kind of like people wear more normal group fitness clothing and it's not quite so Lance Armstrong on a bike or Tour de France style clothing in the class because I've always felt that was quite off putting to people who had never ridden a bike outside.

Cameron  

Yeah, it's um, it's funny being in Boulder, Colorado, right? So this is the land of, of World Class athletes. And yeah, there are many days where I go riding and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I know that is in front of me. And I don't want them to see me, I'm going a different direction, because that's a tour de france athlete. Yeah. And you know if that's normal here, and Colorado is totally an anomaly in that there are probably more classes that have people in full kit than not. But that is not the rest of the space. And you're right. It's so nice now to see people in a different array of clothes, a different array of body types. And it's not. It's it's like, I would make the analogy of like, ice dancing, and like speed skating, like you both wear skates, but they're like, so totally different from different target audiences, different skills, different athletes are just different. And it's great that we have that now.

Will:  

For sure. So, what number are we up to? I'm so involved in this conversation.

Cameron  

That was three.

Will:  

That was three. Okay, number four, hit me.

Cameron  

Okay, so this one is, again, speaking to like the numbers and the metrics talk. So rather than like, I guess I would say ditch speaking about absolute values and speak to ranges, or benchmarks. So we used to call this like, the number one crime against the console or how you would get arrested by the power police is if you walk into a class, and you say, okay, everybody 275 watts, because that is equivalent to going into the weight room and saying, okay, everybody, we're gonna benchpress 150 pounds. Yeah. And it seems silly when you say it that way. Because you're like, whoa, okay, 150 pounds. That's way too heavy for some people and way too light for others. But it happens with power all the time where people just speak to these very specific metrics that they can do, and they think that it will apply to the group. Yeah, and it drives me bonkers because that's not how it works. And there's you know, power to weight ratio and all these other factors that you need to consider but I would take that and extend it out to other metrics too. So cadence, you can get specific on that if you know what you're doing. You know, if it's to the beat of the music, it's to the beat of the music. But when you're talking about resistance and things like that, it's got to be either really, really wide range, or better than a range, just say, okay, on that last one minute effort, I want you to, you know, remember what you did for output, and you're going to try to beat that by and then name your amount. And that way, everybody is on the same playing field. They don't feel left out. And and or they don't feel like you're telling them something that doesn't apply to them.

Will:  

Yeah, for sure. Because I guess there's no way to feel more left out or demotivated than by being given a value that you just completely can't get anywhere close to it. 

Cameron  

That's so true. And I've heard it in treadmill classes to where like, the instructor will, you know, yell out a speed that she's running at? And I'm like, girl, like, no, I'm not even. I'm not even gonna start there. Please don't tell me that. But if she had said, I want you to increase your speed by point 2.4, then it wouldn't have mattered where I started versus where she started.

Will:  

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so number five.

Cameron  

Yes, let's see, I think this one, I'm kind of pivoting more towards today's world, knowing how many people are teaching on camera. But it works in the group space, too. I really believe that your face should hurt more than your legs. Because you're smiling the whole time. So if you have that feeling, and your cheeks have like, they're a little bit numb. It means you were smiling the whole class because even a second or two of, like a momentary bitchface. Like

Will:  

I am quite guilty of that.

Cameron  

No, but it's really weird, because you can get away with it in a class. But on camera, just a two or three seconds of your thinking face. Yeah, looks terrible. It doesn't look like you know what's going on, it doesn't look like you're owning the space. So as people are teaching more and more to camera, I'm like, okay, you're staring at that little circle, which you don't want to stare at, but you're gonna stare at it and your face is gonna hurt. Because you're smiling in some way, shape or form the entire time. Yeah, and it makes you feel like when you watch it from the other side as an audience member. It's just so engaging, it feels like that person has their arms wrapped around you. It's just a totally different experience.

Will:  

Yeah, when I film for any of our shift workouts, I do get to the end of a workout. And then the end of the day, and my face is just aching because I do have bitch face. And so I don't smile that much when I'm just sitting by myself. And so I and I'm not I don't think I trained myself to do particularly like I think I've been doing enough camera work for now that I know, I've seen myself on camera not smiling and being like, Whoa, who like, what are they? And so I know that I need to smile. And so I kind of do it automatically. But I think that the more at the early stage of your career for people that, as you said, are not used to teaching on camera and are now having to do that as sort of a rule rather than something that they would have done just for an assessment or the odd odd piece of content. Yeah, it is. It's you need to train yourself. And the good thing is is just like anything, if you train yourself to do it, you eventually stop having to think about it because it becomes a habit.

Cameron  

Yeah, and then and that habit will serve you so well everywhere else. Like Imagine you're just like walking down the street with your like a game face on. You know, everyone, you're lighting up a space in front of you and around you. It's it's really powerful. So, yeah, your face should hurt more than your legs, because you should be faking it if you want to smile.

Will:  

Yeah, exactly. Oh, like I love those five tips. So if for anyone that was listening, don't worry about writing those down. We're gonna stick them all in the show notes so you can have them. Now before we get on to talking about your new venture, which I really want to hear about, I'm gonna throw you on the spot and say, What do you think is the are the top cycling brands of the moment or the last 10 years because like, there was a moment when soulcycle was like right up there. Everybody was talking about it right? And then I feel like peloton just went and knocked them right off the top spot. And since the law especially since we've gone super digital, peloton has just been all anyone's talked about. But there's obviously been a number of cycling formats and number of cycling brands. In your opinion, who has really nailed it, or who are the brands that you think have really done the best and this doesn't have to be right now it can also be kind of looking at who who made real impact and who made real changes. I'm curious to know what you think. 

Will:  

I, you know, I would say I mean, as I mentioned earlier, like all ships rose with with peloton and soulcycle. Right? It brought the presence of those brands into everyday people's homes that had no idea that most of us had been riding bikes that didn't go anywhere since the early 90s. So now they knew about it, and there was awareness of it. And, and it's opened it up to a lot of other players. I will say that anyone that teaches something that is repeatable, that the user can try again and again, to see if they're getting better, that's not going away. Right. So obviously, like, you know, rpm, so body pump, I should say Les Mills body pump has been huge here in the United States for a very long time. RPM, not quite so much. It's just freestyle was a bigger thing here. But what I loved about that format was that I could tell someone, hey, we're gonna do release, you know, 54, again next week, and they have a frame of reference and something that they could go back to, especially if they're tracking stuff, and see whether or not they did better. So I think what what those formats prove to us all is that while instructors might be getting bored, and hence reinventing themselves, every class, which by the way, no one really likes, instructors, or rather, your participants just want to know that they got a little bit better. So like, with on demand, anyone that's doing on demand, like people are playing the same workouts, like, yes, peloton has 1000s and 1000s of options. But that save this workout feature is really valuable. And people go back and they listen to the same thing. And it might be the instructions, it might be the music. But the folks that I would say at in large, that are doing it really well are not necessarily focusing on as much volume of class content as possible, but rather good content that can be repeated and maybe has certain variables twisted or changed in it. And because again, the instructor is the one that's bored, not,,, not the people at home. 

Will:  

Because you can do the 30 minute HIIT ride with Robin, 30 minute ride with Robin, and then you can do that again a couple of weeks later. And that will and it will track your score for you. So you don't have to write it down or remember it.

Cameron  

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's just so cool. I think, like, you know, looking out into the future, like I really do see indoor cycling, becoming, like, so niche that we almost don't recognize it as a singular format anymore. So like, if you look at trends, you know, in the technology space, which we can talk about my technology background a different time, but in the technology space, like you know, Netflix is the streaming service that everyone thinks of when they think video on demand. But there are more and more streaming services that are becoming completely niche, where like the only thing they offer is like obscure ROM coms, or, or like things that you never heard of, for the people like me that are like okay, Star Trek and all things Star Trek, there's going to be like a whole streaming service for that. So I think we're gonna see indoor cycling content and get to that point where it's very specific for the population, the demographic, the likes and dislikes of that group, and people are going to really hone in and find their people.

Will:  

Right, because like indoor cycling is not going away. For anyone that's listening to this podcast, you know, we are talking about five days after Beachbody and mix, the big Beachbody and mix partnership was announced. So Beachbody is is effectively looking to go public. And they're doing so with an equipment company that has a bike with them and their, their their pitch is, sort of peloton for the masses it seems to be and that their bike is going to be you know, less than half the price. And they're going to be rolling that into the Beachbody ecosystem, which already has sort of 3 million users in the US and has always been has been, you know, a staple of people who weren't really comfortable in the gym and felt more comfortable working out at home for a long time. So people just keep on entering the space and and i think that the reality is that even if you're listening to this new thing, my participants don't have a bike at home, that that like that is gradually changing. And I think that, that a stationary cycle a home is something that more and more people will be investing in because as you said, like it doesn't take up too much space, it can be used by everybody. It's low impact. And as people who are fit and want to stay active, get older, and they have families and they need something that is bang for buck they can get in and out and that isn't gonna wreck their back or their knees, indoor cycling is the best and I say that as a someone that's loved it forever but who relies on it more and more for blowing up my cardio because I can't do 50 tuck jumps in a row I used to be able to but that will kill me now whereas I can absolutely smash my heart right on a stationary cycle without any of the pain afterwards.

Cameron  

Yep, I mean that's it's right on. I mean, gosh to address so many things there, I mean, body. No, I did a Beachbody workout an hour before we started. I love Beachbody, I always have. And I love it because it's one of the few that's program based. And it's not just one offs. And I love that it's just solid programming. It's basic progression, like, you know, for any personal trainer, it's not rocket scientist or rocket science, but for the user. It is. Yeah. And I mean, I've been saying it for years, but when they came up with muscle confusion, and you're like, dang it, why didn't I call it muscle confusion when I was personal training clients, because it's so sexy, and it totally makes sense. 

Will:  

But what does it mean? It doesn't matter.

Will:  

It doesn't matter. It's periodization. Kind of, but it's great. You know, and I love it. And there's there's something in that simplicity. And they've done such a good job of making it feel accessible to everybody and everybody. And even like some of the latest releases like like, what is it like MBF. Muscle burns fat? 

Will:  

I did that yesterday. Was that the one you did today? I did muscle burns fat.

Will:  

No. No, I did. I did a muscle burns fat today. But I love the fact the way that they've integrated this zoom class. Mm hmm. So the cast is over zoom. And then Megan is, you know, the, the camera personality who is alone, and obviously, this is during the time of COVID. But they did it flawlessly. And it feels real, that people feel you know, authentically communicating with one another in true community. I mean, it's, it's on point.

Will:  

It's really I feel like...I know that Jeffrey Scott has recently joined them. And I feel that he is all over that one.

Cameron  

I thought so, too.

Will:  

Yeah, that's what I thought. It feels like a difficult workout. I'm gonna have to get him on the podcast. Okay, right. So we're running out of time, I don't want to keep you for too much longer. But I really want to hear about your new business. So why don't you take us through, it's quite complicated, but that goes with the whole being a nerd thing.

Cameron  

Right, so. So I started moving away from education on the stage aside, because I had a great team of people that were doing amazingly with this. So around 2017, I started moving into more of a product specific role. So in our group display technologies, and you know, all things like software having to do with indoor cycling. So, you know, we released a single rider bike commercial bike called solo, that wasn't instructor driven classes, it was really more gamified experience. So I got my feet wet building, you know, a software product from scratch with a team of developers understanding how to run agile, you know, Scrum methodology, with teams. I mean, it was like a huge, huge shift for me. But I also realized how much I love it and how I really enjoy making something from nothing. So that that coupled with just sort of my entrepreneurial way kind of led me to believe that, like, I was getting close to needing to make a change, because, like, I've done what I needed to do it stages, and my people are like, good to go. And I'm just going to see them be wildly successful over the next 10 years. So really, it's a content play. So I've I've had, you know, numerous customers talk to me over the last six months saying like, we just need help with our own brand of content. So really, it's them saying we don't want to lose market share to someone else, like a peloton, we want people to continue to pay their membership or pay for a virtual membership, but have our brand wrapped around them. And we need classes for that. So, so surve and surve productions and surve technologies are around being able to do that for commercial brands. So let's say you're a big box in the middle of America, and you need classes that represent your brand, but you don't know the first thing about you know, training your staff to teach the camera, having it be a quality that you know your members will pay for, really like the white label or bespoke version of of that class content creation. So that's one part of the business. The part two of the business and and this is where I get so excited because I do really like purpose driven organizations, I've always had a soft spot for B corps, and those who purpose is baked into their bylaws and their mission statement of their company. So Surve is a B Corp. And so for anyone that books a day of filming with us we donate a day of filming in to unserved markets or underserved markets. So the first markets that we're focusing on in the United States are the Spanish speaking so American Spanish speaking market, as well as the American Sign Language community because there is so there's nothing out there right now. Other I mean, there's closed captioning, of course, but it's not your people if they're not speaking your preferred language. So and there's so many other niches that I'm so excited to get into, but those are the two that I see between Biggest, the biggest opening and the biggest area to serve people better. So that's surve well. And then the third arm of the company surve technologies. And this is where I'm gonna lose all the people because it is because as many of you know, like the music licensing space, I mean, you had, gosh, you've had numerous people actually talk about music licensing, but you had Linda on to talk about, I'm sorry, Denise. Sorry, not Linda, you had Denise from Muscle Mixes on to talk about, you know, just the differences. And even understanding that world like most people are just not even knowing what's going on in that space, but knowing they need to do something differently with music. So surve technologies is a middleware. So think software that combines two things that you'll never see it's just kind of running in the background. But surve technologies is going to work to combine the instructors with the music that they want to use in class with the record labels, publishers and the Songwriters that they need to get the sync licensing clearances for. So as an instructor, you probably will never interface with the software but your club will interface with the software to make sure that you're doing things in a way that's compliant. Starting in the United States because y'all,Australia, New Zealand. I'm not ready for that. 

Will:  

Yeah, yeah, I feel that I feel that there's a bit that needs to be a massive consolidation play into making everyone's laws the same because it's so complicated right now.

Cameron  

But and that's the thing like and that's, you know, everyone I talked to you, it's like, it's too complicated. It's too litigious. You need too many lawyers this, that and the other will, that's the perfect reason to solve this problem. Yeah. Because it's real. And finally, the, you know, the big labels are seeing fitness as the real opportunity that it actually is. So it wasn't taken seriously forever and ever. And now they're they're seeing it, you know, again, thanks to peloton, soulcycle, Equinox and all the others that are fighting that good fight for all of us. I just want to automate it all. Yeah.

Will:  

So back to back to back to music is where you're going, in a circular fashion, always moving forward.

Cameron  

Yes, that's just it. It's combining the things all the nerdy things that I've learned all the process, things that I've learned all the scalability things that I've learned with stages, and then bringing it back to like, hey, musicians are just as broke as fitness people right now. Like, let's give them another avenue to earn sync licensing revenue and in a way that they can control. So it's full circle.

Will:  

Awesome. Well, I would end with with my number one, your with your number and recommendation for instructors. But you've already given us five, so I won't make you go over that again. All that's left to say is thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. When does the new business launch? Is it is it launched yet or here? Yeah.

Cameron  

Like truly it's it's official. So we will tell you guys and yeah, by the time you have your your, by the time this goes live, they will have goodies on the website.

Will:  

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for joining me. And I'm sure that we will talk again, because you have a lot of fun stuff that you have on your plate. And I can't wait. I can't wait to see how 2021 ends up for you. Cameron, thank you so much for joining me.

Cameron  

Thanks so much, Will. It's been a pleasure.

Will:  

I hope you enjoyed my chat with Cameron. I really enjoyed this one. And I loved all of your tips that are so relevant, no matter what style of group fitness you teach. One thing that really stood out to me from this conversation was Cameron's tip about finding your lane. It's something we've talked about a number of times on the podcast and looking at it from an indoor cycling perspective gives a really clear understanding. The instructor who is incredible at creating a dance club, like experience in the spin studio, is probably going to be unlikely to also be incredible at delivering a performance class focused on metrics and the grind. They're completely opposing styles. There will be some people who can do both. I know I guarantee it. However, it's very unlikely that someone will feel that they really sit in the essence of what they're teaching in both of those styles because they're so different. What you should take away from this is that you never have to feel like you need to be everything for everyone just to get that extra class on the timetable. Now, that is not to say that you should never go out of your comfort zone, you absolutely should. But more that you should just know where your top skills lie and work to play these up. Never try to be something that you're not your classes will be much more enjoyable for you and the people in them. If you stick within your lane of expertise and authenticity. Finally, Cameron's quote, your face should hurt more than your legs is a brilliant one. And it's so true. It's especially true when you're on the bike and Can't use the room to run around. But it's also something every instructor that teaches virtually should remember, we all know that teaching through a screen can be really tough. And generally you have to give 110% of what we would do giving an A live class for it to have even close to the same level of energy. So, if you're someone that teaches virtually This is super important for you do a cheat check at the end of your next class. Is your face hurting? If so, you know that you brought it. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.