Rodney:

You know, we didn't realize it was happening at the time. But you know, taking, you know, that gay instructor step class or, you know, participating in you know, this workshop, you know, with other diverse people, those things were softening our perspectives and helping us become more empathetic. And I feel that our industry, if we're going to be that place where people come together and create community, it's not about the demographics. It's not about percentages of groups, or this, that and the other. It really gets back to what our values are, what we think our purpose and our mission is, as an industry. People need to be healthy and fit, not just by losing pounds and you know, getting in shape. Mentally, spiritually, we need to be supporting them and challenging them, you know, to live a better life and be a better version of themselves. And for me, creating diverse experiences, and giving people to access is such a huge part of that.

Will:  

Hey, I'm Will Brereton, founder of SH1FT Fitness. And this is Group Fitness Real Talk, a show about how to survive and even thrive in group fitness in 2021 and beyond. Diversity and Inclusion, two incredibly important concepts, but also two words that can stir up a lot of emotion, confusion, apprehension, and fear of judgment. As a leader and voice in the fitness space, I feel it's my responsibility to champion diversity and inclusion across the instructor community. And for you guys, as instructors, I strongly believe that you have an important role to play in championing diversity and inclusion across your classes and community. But that doesn't mean that it's always easy, or that you or I will always get it right. But rather than avoiding doing anything at all, because you're afraid of missing the mark, how can we approach the subject in a way that acknowledges and respects everybody's differences, while also being authentic to you and your own beliefs. Today, I'm tackling this topic with Rodney Morris. Rodney is the founder of MyFitPod and The Workplace Culture Workout. And he's been a leading voice in the talent, culture and diversity, space and fitness for a number of years. Rodney breaks down this sensitive subject in a really great way that I personally find incredibly helpful. Diversity comes in so many forms in group fitness, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, body image and ability. I want you to keep an open mind whilst listening to this episode. And think about how you approach diversity and inclusion within your community. no judgement, no fear or worry? Just observation because it's with this learning mindset that we can really grow as a community together. Rodney Morris, welcome to the podcast. How are you? 

Rodney  

I am fantastic, sir. How are you?

Will:  

I'm very good. It's a pleasure to have you on here. So just before we pressed record, we were talking about the last time we saw each other. And we're figuring out that it was was it Memphis?

Rodney  

It was it was Memphis, correct. It was Memphis. I said Nashville, but it was Memphis. No air conditioning.

Will:  

Yeah, totally. So we were both working for Les Mills at the time. And we were presenting a quarterly workshop in Memphis, with the team. And I just remember the trip to Graceland, because it's seared into my memory, because I couldn't believe how small that house was. I didn't know what I expected. But it was not then.

Rodney  

Indeed, indeed, indeed.

Will:  

So, the reason I wanted to get you on the podcast,, other than just to catch up, because it's always great, is to talk a little bit about the work you've been doing with diversity, inclusion and culture within the fitness industry and sort of the industry generally. And I've been reading some of the stuff that you've put out recently, and I know you're also doing a webinar series that we're going to talk about later. And everything we talked about today will link to in the show notes. But I guess I'm gonna jump right into it, because I was doing a bit of research for talking to you just to make sure I was totally across the stuff that you've written recently. And I read the Black Power, White Guilt blog post or article that you wrote. And in that you talked about a repost that you did from Club Industry, which was a pretty sort of pretty plain article that just talked about diversity being important. And in that you posted it on Facebook, and you talked about the reaction that you got. And so I went and looked at it, and I was shocked. And in this on the podcast, I don't like to shy away from stuff that's like it's real talk. And we like to talk real. The first post that I saw was fake news. And then the second one to that was fake noose. And I was aghast. It was so shocking that people would reply to that. I went further down the chain. And what really impressed me was the way that you engaged with all of these people who were saying things that I think at first sight were just absolutely unacceptable to what I think is a reasonable standard for how we should treat each other. So tell me, how do you go about being so thoughtful and reasonable in the face In the face of those types of reactions, given where we are in the world today?

Rodney  

Well, I think Will, the first thing is just going back to the intention behind the post and the article itself.

Will:  

Yeah. Tell us a bit about it so that people have some context.

Rodney  

Yeah, I think for those of us who've been involved and have been doing work in the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion space, one of the realizations, especially through this past summer, is that people have almost become deaf, to the topic to the issues to the complexity, because we have so many preconceived assumptions. So assumptions about what diversity is or that, you know, people are already being vilified as being a racist or this that in the other. And because of that, a lot of people are very unwilling to get past the first level. So the article that I reposted from club industry was really saying that, hey, it's time for us to really pick this conversation up and see this as being important. And what's interesting, and you may not have realized this or known this on the front end, is that I was advertising that post through Facebook and have put, you know, some money behind getting this in front of more people because it was important for...

Will:  

Which means it's not just your network, right, it means it goes to pegs that are outside your echo chamber.

Rodney  

Exactly, so that's when all of the responses started to flood in. And you know, one of the focuses of the article, the blog posts that you read, was really about acknowledging that people have very strong and visceral reactions to not just the topic, but even just imagery associated with it. So I intentionally took the the stock image from the club industry post, and created something that I knew would be controversial and attention getting. And literally, it was an image of a black fist and a white fist, and it said, white guilt, black power. And even if you literally just read the first sentence of the actual post, you clearly could see what the focus was. So few people were willing to do that. So few people were willing to go, at least to the first level of depth to understand the context and the intention. So you asked me like how I stay calm, easy, steady. And this, it's also comes from understanding that a lot of us are so overwhelmed right now. One of our elements right now is a world is that no one's willing to peel back the first layer, to ask the first question, to actually engage in the dialogue and discussion. So what was encouraging to me was that in many of those conversations with those very volatile posts that you saw on the page, once people were engaged, and I didn't approach them with anger, or aggression, or accusation, many were willing to actually take a step back and realize that there was more to the story, and maybe even go on to read the article. But I think a lot of folks in the in the DEI space right now are kind of hitting that wall consistently. Because if you mentioned black lives matter if you mentioned any of those things, people are so wired, to misinterpret the intention that they refuse to even come to the table.

Will:  

Right. So people will literally seeing the image, deciding how they, deciding their reaction to that image, not even bothering to read the post the image was about, and then jumping in with their comment based not on what you would actually post it, but just on their interpretation of the particular image that you chosen to use.

Absolutely. And, you know, the sad thing is, I think we all were exhausted by this through, you know, all the politics of the last year. I mean, how many articles did you see posted or reshared, you know, on social media, that were complete and utter just ridiculousness, but people will then spend days literally days arguing back and forth over the idea of the article while no one actually read it. So I think that's just that's symptomatic of really, I think, a disease, then, you know, social media and information or access to information has created, where we're not being responsible consumers of information right now. And that, right, that's really making it harder for us to come together as opposed to, to not,

Will:  

It's that issue, right? You read the headline. And unfortunately, the way that the way that the media works, the headline has to be attention grabbing. And in order to be attention grabbing, it sometimes needs to be controversial or to boil the issue down into a single sentence. And then if people don't seek to understand and read the actual material that's being published, they can get an impression from that one headline that then can spurn an entire argument that you know, his comments and threads long on Facebook when no one is actually engaging on the meat of the issue or the topic?

Rodney  

Absolutely. And it goes completely and totally sideways, as you saw in the comments, you know, on that particular post and page, and that actually, you know, inspired me, you know, through the summer because, firstly, because the article in the series didn't get a lot of traction from people who are genuinely interested in the conversation. I kind of came to the conclusion that between COVID and everything else in the summer, a lot of folks were just exhausted. But no, but but then and this actually came up, we just actually finished the recording for the second part of our webinar series. And one of the topics that came up in that conversation folks can see this when it's released. Yeah, was that there's also because of how volatile things have become, people that were not living in either extreme became very hypersensitive, to even getting in the arena, because it was like, okay for you to have a voice on this or for you to, you know, speak up on this. You need it to be one of these two extremes. And quite frankly, they didn't identify with either extreme.

Will:  

Yep. So bowing out of the conversation, like I'm not I'm not here, and I'm not there. And it's all too hard. So I'm just going to kind of wall it off, or divorce myself from it.

Rodney  

And that is the strategy that has allowed us to get to this point, you know, right. Yeah. Because Because most of us agree, right? We don't live in the extremes. Most of us are somewhere around the middle. But the majority doesn't actively engage and sway public opinion and sway public action, then we shouldn't be surprised when the inmates are running the asylum.

Will:  

Absolutely. It's become really hard, right? Because so I'm at home, visiting my folks at the moment. And I have had many arguments with my father. And the thing that I've realized is that we disagree about all of these issues around the around the edge. So he gets annoyed with people saying, OK, Boomer, and doesn't necessarily agree with me on some of the cultural issues that that we talked about. But then if we boil it down, we actually agree on so much like, we agree that, you know, you should redistribute wealth, so that there can be healthcare for everybody, and all these sort of fundamental things that I believe quite strongly, and he believes in too, but we just end up arguing about all these little things at the top, because we won't go deeper into the conversation. And it's really made me realize that that is, as you say, symptomatic to what the whole world is going through, right, like everybody is just getting caught up in the very top layer, and not willing to go deeper, when there's so much similarity and so much that we can usually agree on that we're getting caught up in this stuff that is at the edges, and is at the most kind of controversial and top level of things.

Rodney  

Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I feel like my personal position on this has shifted, not shifted, but it's intensified greatly if you roll with this, because I think as a fitness professional, we have all gotten into this industry, probably because we fell in love with the access that it gave us to so many people and experiences like for the two of us haven't been involved in Les Mills, I mean, literally traveled the world, having experiences enriching your perspective, not everyone gets the opportunity to do that. But in its most, you know, local level, gyms and fitness clubs, allow people who look sound and act nothing alike to cohabitate and to, to create community. And through COVID, and through all the isolation, a lot of us have lost that. But I would argue that, you know, we didn't realize it was happening at the time. But you know, taking, you know, that gay instructor step class or, you know, participating in, you know, this workshop, you know, with other diverse people, those things were softening our perspectives, and helping us become more empathetic. And I feel that our industry, if we're going to be that place where people come together and create community, it's not about the demographics, it's not about percentages of groups or this, that and the other, it really gets back to what our values are, and what we think our purpose and our mission is, as an industry. People need to be healthy and fit not not just by losing pounds, and you know, getting in shape, mentally, spiritually, we need to be supporting them and challenging them, you know, to live a better life and be a better version of themselves. And for me, creating diverse experiences, and giving people that access is such a huge part of that

Will:  

100% I, you know, I never thought about it in that way. But if I look back, you're exactly right, like a class can bring to I mean, depends on where you are, I'm sure there are some locations where, where the class is quite homogenous, because the city or the town is quite homogenous, but coming like living in a big city, any type of big city, you realize that a gym or a fitness class really does bring in a huge, diverse group of people that are all there because they enjoy the same thing. And it's just a perfect kind of microcosm of the fact that we don't have to be the same to find common ground or to find things that we enjoy doing.

Rodney  

Absolutely, and I think, you know, even in I think about my professional experiences, I think a lot of us can all identify with this. We've all been in environments where for some reason or another, we were in the minority, but our presence and our engagement and our involvement, absolutely touched, impacted and changed those around us. I can just think back to you know, the last time I literally saw you, you know, the world that we lived in, you know, to be an outwardly gay man, you know in the fitness center. History, you know, we lived under pressure not to show our gay like, really? Like, like really like, like really like like really. That was the world that we lived in. And I think about, you know, a conversation I had with a colleague at the time, where, you know, we even created community amongst our group, because we wanted to show people like us that they could be themselves and they can be authentic, and they could be out and proud and all of those things, but our industry was not born, you know, thinking about diversity and inclusion, you know, most of these clubs, social clubs, what country clubs, whatever, you know, these were people with privilege that typically were white and suburban, you know, create a community amongst themselves. And, you know, I think COVID forced a lot of us last year to realize that, yeah, if 50% of your membership base is not going to come back, you probably should get good at finding some other people to market to. But even that reality, sadly, I don't think is motivating enough people to step even further beyond, you know, their comfort zone. Like, it's not just enough to say, Hey, you know, we're gonna try to get people to join our gym, it's, Hey, is this really a space where they feel safe creating community? Like, does that gay person feel as though they can be authentic and be themselves here? You know, does that Muslim person, you know, feel as though they aren't going to be judged or ridiculed here. And I think something that's gotten us in trouble. I think about this, because it burned in my mind all summer. ages ago, when Michael Jordan was asked about why he wouldn't openly endorse, you know, a Democratic candidate for senator over a Republican, he's

Will:  

I heard this quote yesterday in a completely different context. But it is such a great quote, continue.

Rodney  

Yes. But but but he wouldn't do that. Because republicans buy shoes too.

Will:  

Yeah.

Rodney  

With the fitness industry, I feel like we've been riding that justification for so long. But this is the time and I'll say it bluntly, we need to either piss or get off the pot like, yeah, Either we're about diversity, inclusion and honoring people for who they are, you know, authentically, or we're just here trying to make a dollar. And it's time to call a spade a spade and move on. But if we are ready to move to that next level, it doesn't matter if you've got a homogenous community. It's not about your demographics. It's about your values. What do you really believe?

Will:  

Yeah, totally. 100%. I, I love hearing this because I like as a as someone who started my own business as the face of my own business, there have been times when and I've never seen myself like, I've always been who I am. I've really. But But there have been times when, when I've kind of thought I don't want to I don't want to lean too heavily into the gay thing. Because what if some of my, what if some of my instructors don't like that, and, and, you know, because I like, on the one hand, being true to yourself, on the other hand, being commercial and understanding that, you know, like, you need to make a business work, right. And so you can get, you can go down the road of Let's be in the middle, and let's not offend anybody. So that I'm not saying anything that would be offensive to people on the right. I'm not saying anything that would be offensive to people on the left, I'm allowing everyone to be inclusive. And I think that's a way that a lot of individuals are and I think like, I know that your webinar was, it was white voices speak right was the one that you just correct. Yeah. And I know that like, particularly for so for those listeners who don't find themselves in the minority, which I think is a lot of listeners to this podcast, that can be the the lane that you choose, right? Because you, you're just a bit scared of speaking out on certain things. But at the end of the day, you do have to think about like, what are my values? And what do I care about? And what impact do I want to have on the world. And I think that it's a conversation that the fitness industry, all industries, but also the fitness industry, has been able to be on the fence about, but I think that as we move out of COVID, and as we start to build a new world and a new fitness industry and things change, it's going to be more difficult to set that out. Because people people care about values, we know that the generations coming through care a lot more about the values that the brands they choose to invest in our banking and espousing. And so it's kind of important to understand where do you stand on those things?

Rodney  

Nope, completely and totally agree. I think, you know, even just the experience, we were doing the recording for this. That was a lot of the motivation behind even doing the webinar. I felt like after the experience, I was glad you started with that, you know, with the comments, you know, on the article, that there were so many people that were just completely unwilling to either get to the table to have the conversation, or to your last point, you know, felt uncomfortable, like truly uncomfortable, like putting themselves in the center of all of that, that we needed to start to realize that most of us aren't racist. At least we don't try to be you know, most of us aren't crappy human beings like we actually do care about other people do we grapple with making sure that our own financial needs are met? Our own sense of safety and security is prioritized for ourselves and our families. Absolutely. But you know, we generally don't wish strangers on the street bad, like, yeah, we just aren't those people. But because of all the things that have happened with these two extremes, a lot of the canceled culture that we see taking place has essentially terrified people into not owning their perspective. And all that's done is amplified the two extremes even more, and that was really probably the most powerful point that came out was that we wanted to do that webinar because we felt like we needed to tell people, hey, it's okay. Like, we no one really expects all of us to have all the answers, or to all of a sudden just live on these extremes. We just need people to, to really own what they know to be right or true, or be willing to ask questions. And then for those that aren't, for those that are minorities be would be willing to not vilify, you know, your white friends that say things out of ignorance only because they've not had exposure. I'm like, we are the fitness industry, we understand, empirically, that a muscle that is undeveloped, cannot perform. We get that, like, we get that like you don't on your first day training a client, you know, that's never done any resistance training, you don't put a 400 pound barbell on their back and say squat like, right? What typically happens, right? So the same thing is true when it comes to issues of race and diversity. Like if you're working with people that are interested in diversity, equity and inclusion, and they want to do work, but they truly have no reps. And they have no conditioning. Yeah, you know, you start them out with basic stretches. And like, you know, bodyweight exercises, like the same philosophy applies. When it comes to doing this type of social justice work. You just can't expect someone to be a power lifter, you know, for diversity on day one,

Will:  

That is an amazing analogy. I've never thought of it like that. And I'm sure that that's that that is something that you've thought about, but like likening it to, to how people exercise, obviously, for this podcast, it makes a lot of sense, because we're all fitness professionals, and we think about it that way. But you're exactly right. I think because I often felt like I feel that I hopefully have been doing a bit of work in this space. For a while diversity is super important to me, it's one of the values that we really, that we really bring forward with shifts, body diversity, ethnic diversity, cultural diversity, all those sorts of things. But even me, and I feel that like, I could be more on the woke in like I've done a lot of reading. I studied a lot of this stuff. When I was in university, sometimes I see something on Instagram or social media, by someone who is working towards racial justice or racial equity, however you want to describe it. And even I kind of brace at it, because it it is it's a bit stronger than I'm quite ready to accept. And I think that a lot of that's the experience that a lot of people who don't consider themselves to be racist, and do consider themselves to feel that diversity and inclusion is important. As, as stronger voices that are less willing to mediate the things that they're saying have gotten more popularity, there's almost a pushback where both sides are, like, where it's being so strongly, strongly explained, that people who previously thought that they understood feel that they don't understand and it just becomes really difficult. But it's exactly that right. Like, you can't go from not understanding a nother person's experience to completely understanding it. Because a you never will. But you have to take baby steps towards it. And as you take baby steps towards it, and communicate on both sides, both sides learn a little bit more about where that person is coming from and how they can find the common ground.

Rodney  

Absolutely. I mean, there's so many analogies, you know, for the fitness industry, like, I'll use the one that we both have experienced this a lot, you know, training and developing instructors over the years, like, you know, think about an experience if you ever gone through a training to teach any kind of a format, right? How would you feel if on day one, your trainer expected you to perform at the level of like any elite certified instructor? Yeah, this particular format, right now. Yeah. And if you don't teach as well, as I do, right now, you know, you're really just not worth my time or you're a bad human being like, yeah, don't even waste your time. Don't pass, go. don't collect $200. Don't ever speak to me again, I'm ashamed to even know you as a human being right. And we would never do that to someone that we were training or coaching. But we do that to friends and family over racial and political issues, like momentarily, just because you have a family member or someone that is a friend that isn't as woke as you are or may not have had as many reps as you have to get to a certain level of empathy or understanding. One habit that we have is that we have this expectation that people are going to be immediately excellent. And if they don't meet that expectation, then we're quick to discard them. So I think it's just it perpetuates That same cycle like, as fitness, folks, we have to understand and embrace that if someone wants to achieve a goal, it takes time, they can't lose 100 pounds by drinking this beverage, or by doing this five minute core workout, like it just don't work that way. And diversity, and racism and all of those things, they work the same way as well, it takes time,

Will:  

Right, It's the intention, right, like if someone is coming in and willing to put in the work, and even if they struggle with the work at first, and maybe like, because we you know, we've all had class members or clients that have like, not been great clients or class members at the start, like they stop all the time, or they rebel against it, or they don't want to do the nutrition, or they don't want to do the hard bits. But if they persevere and stick at it, they eventually get there. And it's that intention, that's kind of the important thing when it comes to most things in life, right? It's not, it's not enough that you just turn up once and and do something, you have to do it repeatedly and gradually grow.

Rodney  

Absolutely, totally. Like, I'll use another example, which is completely technically unrelated. kind of works. Like way back in the day, I won't go into the details of why but I was going through some like couples therapy, like like relationship counseling, and it was all about effective communication. And the thing that I took away from this workshop that has stuck with me from that last day, was that for effective communication to work, only one of the two people really needs to be focused on wanting to achieve a great outcome. Yeah, and that was like mind blowing to me, because at first, I think a lot of us come from this perspective of, you know, someone's got to be willing to meet me halfway, you know, before I fully engage, or I fully, you know, expose my vulnerability, you know, and the relationship, we can see how that plays out. Right, yeah. But if one person has the skills necessary, and they have the patience, and the diligence, you know, over time, they can help the other person eventually get there. But it's, it's learning how not to be triggered, and how not to react, how to be intentional, when you're met with that opposition. So say, for example, you know, that partner that you have, that anytime they're disgruntled, they immediately like go from zero to 101 says that all this other stuff, right? Most of us just want to walk away from that situation. Same things true when you're talking about diversity issues, like, if I go back to your first question for me, which is, how do you stay centered, when you're met with that, you know, so violently, is that you have to understand that in this dynamic, I need to be the person that's committed to the outcome. And I may not get to the outcome I'm looking for today. But if I'm disciplined, and I do this one day one step one interaction at a time, there becomes an increasing probability that the outcome will manifest, maybe not with this person directly, but with someone else. And I think that's the that's the approach that we've got to be willing to take as leaders for diversity and for inclusion in our industry.

Will:  

So I completely agree. And and I saw that I like looking at that Facebook post, I can see that right. Like if someone says something that, you know that the reason they've said that is because they have a closed mind, or they've chosen to react to something in a way that they didn't engage with it, they just reacted. And by engaging with them, like even if you say something at first glance, and someone says, that's an interesting approach, explain to me why you feel that way. And you do it in a respectful and gracious tone, it's really hard to come back at that and still be angry, right? If someone seeks to understand what you're putting, like, seeks to if you if you if someone seeks to understand what you were saying, it's really hard to get angry at them for making that sort of good, positive and good faith effort.

Rodney  

Exactly. It sounds like you were in this relationship seminar years ago, because you totally hit the nail on the head. And that really is it's all about, you know, understanding someone else's sensory experience, which is the things and the the moments in their lifetime, that created the frame that they're actually viewing the world through. So yeah, a lot of us just are content to argue, you know, my frame of reference versus your frame of reference. Yeah, we don't actually take a step back and say, Hey, let me peel back the layers and figure out how this person got to that point, or that place of understanding. So, you know, I think for us, you know, in the industry, that's where it gets really, really tough. Because I think we all found this out over the summer. It can be exhausting, if you don't feel as if you're making progress. Yeah. And also realizing that sometimes you really can't identify with someone's perspective. And it's hard to stay committed to your own course of action just when you when you when you can't see the Connect.

Will:  

So I have a question for you, like bring it back to the fitness industry. And this is something that I saw, so talked about after certain companies and firms made diversity statements, and that was met with some, some level of discontent from people who felt that by championing diversity and wanting to have diversity in in corporate companies, corporations on stage have do that if you weren't one of the, like diverse people that they were looking for. So if you're a white man, and that your chances were going to be diminished, and that you are going to miss out on opportunities, and I and I saw that like time and again, and I'm really interested to know, as someone who works specifically in the diversity and inclusion space, how do you like how do you feel about that complaint, when it comes from someone who feels that the new focus on diversity is taking away an opportunity that is that they should feel he didn't get a chance to have as well.

Rodney  

So I'm going to break this up into two parts, the first part is really short. And that is, with what you just outlined, there are two types of organizations, there's one organization that is checking the box to say that, hey, I am you know, I am demonstrating that I support diversity and inclusion. And there really isn't an altruistic you know, motivation behind it, right. It's just, I need to control the optics of my business, I need to demonstrate that I am in this camp. Yeah, I don't care about those companies, we're going to talk about those companies, they're going to reveal themselves in time, but the ones that are doing it for truly the purpose and intention of making the world a better place. I think the problem that some of those customers are having is there's a misalignment understanding of the values of the organization, I think a lot of folks misinterpret conversations about diversity, as about being about demographics, or certain percentages or ratios, just representation, when dei is really about the values and the core beliefs of your organization. So if you truly believe that our business and our customers, and our impact on the world is made better, by putting forward diverse people of diverse experiences, from all different walks of life, then it absolutely aligns with your values and mission to do things that create more opportunities for those people to get consideration and to earn those opportunities. Because that's what your business is driven to do. I think a lot of customers got shocked. And were like, completely like shell shocked when they realized that the company's values are misaligned with their own values, because they themselves did not actually believed that that was what the business was trying to accomplish. And that was what their intention was, I will also say that some organizations, you know, credit to them, pivoted over the course of the summer and realized that they thought that they were Company B, they were Company A. And when they made that shift, it was really jarring to their followers to realize that, yeah, to be a part of this tribe, you really need to get with this and not get with that. And that to me is you know, where the rubber has met the road for a lot of organizations. Because, as all things, we're seeing this polarization and those who started to go in that direction, they're doubling down on your point from a few minutes ago. As generations mature, as you know, younger generations grow into maturity, their preference for value driven organizations, products, services, and brands, is only continuing to grow. So they're playing the long game for the organization. And that's smart. But PS it's still the right thing to do.

Will:  

Yeah, totally. What is your what's your kind of, being someone in the industry what is your idea about like, quotas for organizations or quotas for onscreen talent, or all that sort of thing? Like, where do you stand on that? I'm really curious.

Rodney  

So I think the first piece in we've all said this, I think for years, you can't, you know, manage what you can't measure. Yeah. And I think what gets a lot of organizations in trouble is, when you're developing a diversity, equity and inclusion strategy, you have to break it up into different pieces. Diversity is just getting people, you know, having diversity means Oh, yeah, we've got representation, right, amongst the categories. But you know, actual inclusion is getting people involved in the systems and the political structures, you know, in the fabric of the organization that can lead decision making. And then the equity is making sure that people have similar outcomes across those different categories. Yep. What we struggle with is, sometimes businesses, if they lack diversity, or they lack inclusion, or they lack equity, these are three different things. How can you measure progress if you don't actually put expectations for it? Right? Yep. You just can't. So when people think of quotas, this is again, like, I think the word quota, you know, in the aftermath of affirmative action from Yeah, from the 60s and 70s. People, you know, it naturally just connotates something, you know, very specific, but again, our organization's values is that we are at our best when we have this diverse representation across the board. So at minimum, we want to have A, B, C, D, E, and F and G in order for us to thrive and create that environment. That to me is okay. What I think is lacking though, is that a lot of organizations don't have that level of depth with their inclusivity strategy. And they're not fully transparent, they don't really understand their motivations. I think, again, it's Company A and Company B, it's about optics, that creates problems, because not only do your employees realize you're full of it, your customers realize that you're full of it. And that just perpetuates cycles, you know, of systemic racism that they live in those organizations, but for Company B, I mean, it's, it's game changing, like, it's, I've been so encouraged, as I start to see brands that got it, you know, long before COVID really start to come to the forefront and shine, because they've been developing this infrastructure for years, and prioritizing real diversity for years. And now that message resonates so strongly with a customer base, their customer bases, that people are never going to lead them like, right, that's the glue that I think a lot of businesses want right now that they can't get because they haven't earned it.

Will:  

What are some of the companies that you think have been doing it right for a long time? So let's let's not talk about anything, any company that's kind of pivoted in the last sort of a year, but what are some of those companies within the fitness space that you think have been strong players in this area for a long time?

Rodney  

Well, I got to give, you know, I mean, most recently, you know, I was with fitness connection, but I have to give that organization a nod. Because, you know, one of the things that drew me to the organization, to be really honest, was, I actually first was introduced to fitness connection as a vendor, because I was still working with Les Mills and working with Les Mills, South Central, and went to do a workshop on integrating Personal Training, and group fitness, you know, for the Dallas region. And when I walked in the building, I was blown away, because it was the first time in my life, I walked into a health club, that was a premier build out where there was all kinds of diversity, and it wasn't just shades and sizes, you could tell that there were people from every walk of life, and the DNA of the business was built around that and the organization intentionally would put these multimillion dollar facilities, in communities where none of the other gems would go, and these gems would be incredibly profitable and incredibly profitable. So to see that, you know, it was like, wow, and then over the years, even though that was the foundation, the organization has done a lot of work in terms of representation, you know, within their facilities. I'll give you an example. You know, one of the things that was done was to build these amazing group fitness spaces, right? Murals, all this other stuff, and particularly had partnered with Les Mills, but immediately gave Phil feedback that there was a lack of diversity in those and now when you go into these clubs, you see Brown, you know, every shade of the spectrum, all in, it's so empowering. And I'm like, wow, you know, to see a brand that started, you know, with that, as an intention many years ago, continue to evolve forward is great. Another example, I gave them a nod. And one of my articles as well, was Pure Barre. And I thought that pure bar had been doing quite a bit of work specifically, and not just attracting minorities in terms of customers, and then their marketing, but being intentional about looking for entrepreneurs, to become business owners, you know, of that brand as well. And, you know, I've seen that continue to magnify, and again, it goes back to values and intention. I've also seen similar businesses that have completely floundered and failed this, not because they lacked the demographics, because they lacked the core values to actually support it.

Will:  

And so if you were, if you're within a business and you go into your business, go into a business, and you're consulting, what's kind of the what are some of the biggest blockers that you see at the moment to moving forward with diversity, equality, inclusion in mind?

Rodney  

Blockers? Like, blockers really is the word, like it's blinders, you know, because, you know, and that's the first thing like, I think when you've had an opportunity to function and executive level, you know, in larger organizations, you realize that even though there can be diversity, you know, represented racially. But when it comes to diversity of thought, the higher up you go, and many of these organizations, that diversity completely goes away. And I've seen so many organizations that will commit to doing the work, you know, from a high level, yet those at a high level are not fully bought in and are not directly engaged in the delivery of that work. So it's the self fulfilling prophecy where, you know, typically what I find is that they will appoint the minority of the day to lead you know, 

Will:  

Diversity and inclusion in the workplace. 

Rodney  

Exactly. And, you know, the non diverse people about all the things that they've been doing wrong, which only encourages more resentment, you know, from non people of color, because they feel as they're being vilified for something, they had no choice then like they can't change just like people of color can't change the color of their skin yet white people can't do the same either. So you know, In a lot of organizations, I think the first block and barrier is just realizing that unless you have these voices, a part of the highest level conversations in the organization, your perspective is inherently flawed, your perspective is inherently inherently skewed. And until you can create disruption at that level, it's going to be really hard to start a program that's authentic. And that's going to carry and, you know, the chief at the top, you know, whether whomever that is, they've got to be the biggest and strongest advocate for these programs. And truth be told, and a lot of organizations, these are the, these people are the reasons why these organizations are trying to forget. And that and that's a brutal reality. So like, that's where, like, okay, how do you overcome this, you know, because, you know, the world isn't gonna flip on its head where tomorrow, you know, the structure doesn't go upside down? You know, what the front line that in the fitness industry has been incredibly diverse, you know, for generations now.

Will:  

Yeah, right. Like good credit where it's due, I feel like the fitness industry, at least from the faces within the fitness industry, and the prominent people within fitness, like I know that you and your article you're referencing, like bayto, and Billy Blanks, and all of these very, very prominent, diverse from, you know, all over the world, different shades, different colors, different accents, like from the frontline, fitnesses, I feel have been pretty diverse. And there's a lot to there's a lot to be happy about from the way our industry has been. It's it tends to be that layer back, right, and the investment in the money behind it in the direction that has lacked diversity.

Rodney  

Yeah, absolutely. I think something that I've been talking about with folks a lot the last few weeks is, and this is always a conversation around unpacking the difference between diversity and inclusion. We do a great job. Fitness is a business, right? So guess what, you know, back in the 80s, and 90s, people realize that people like to shake their butts to Latin music, and all of a sudden, you know what, and I remember the first time I saw Zumba at Ursa, right. There were literally eight people on a stage that was like, this big, imagine me like making a very 

Will:  

Not talking, not giving any verbal cues.

Rodney  

Everyone's like, what is this thing, right? But then once it caught fire, you know, there are operators that did not actually value diversity, but realize that this emerging trend was something they needed to get on board with. So all of a sudden, you know, we're trying to find Zumba instructors, and all of a sudden, this is popping up everywhere. But that beginning reason to even do this, it really wasn't about celebrating the diversity of these cultures, of the Latin, you know, influence, you know, on dancing and fitness, it just happened to manifest over time. So I think for us, you know, if we want to really get real about it, you know, our business is taken advantage of, and profited off of these diverse communities. And at many levels, whether they're group x instructors, or personal trainers, we absolutely have that diversity. But inclusion is now saying, let's take this diversity, and teach these people how to grow and elevate within our business, to have more affluence and to create wealth and to create, you know, their own identities and brands, and, you know, in a lot of businesses and clubs, is just the opposite, right? Instructors are significantly underpaid for what they do.

Will:  

I think anyone listening to this will agree with that...

Rodney  

And then, if they're not smart enough, they're gonna sign non competes or other things that prevent them from taking their talent to places where they could be, you know, greater, more greatly rewarded, or more greatly appreciated. And, you know, if we really want to get real about this, you know, those same businesses that are profiting off of the talent of these diverse people need to teach them how to become operators and how to become, you know, business leaders and create those pathways. Because what's happening now, and I think we all saw this over the summer, is that people are figuring out, you know, what, there's another way, like, I don't necessarily have to be in a gym to do this and to make a living and to be successful. And my fear for the industry is what happens in three or four years when this talent has exited.

Will:  

Yeah, yeah.

Rodney  

What do we do now? What do you do now?

Will:  

There's the opportunity now for people to really take control of their own career in a way that there wasn't before right? Like I know that a lot of our podcast episodes have been on this on this topic squarely. It's a it's a gyms are closed, you have no choice but to do it on your own at the moment. And like, maybe you want to go back maybe you don't but it is it is really an opportunity for the fitness industry to change and to kind of reward the people that have been bringing in the numbers for a long time. And I think that that might be a reckoning that a lot of a lot of fitness operators need to realize because for the first time in, in sort of the history of fitness gyms and venues and hubs and physical locations have been closed, but instructors can still instruct and so I think the gyms are going to have to realize that The value of the talent that they use to bring people into their clubs, which is, it's probably a good thing because it forces them to maybe consider the impact that that has and the real value of that person rather than paying them the minimum amount, because that's the only place that they can go to teach their class.

Rodney  

True, true. True. Absolutely. I just think, you know, it was interesting, like, I think a lot of us psychologically, and emotionally, I think it would be hard to not have had a significant low at some point, you know, in the last, you know, eight to 10 months. In the last year, I think we all have, but, you know, I feel as though now, there's this moment of like, almost, when there's a great flood. You know, at first you, you know, you're, you're you miss and you are longing for the things that used to be, but once you come to an understanding that, you know, what was there was cleared away, and now something new and better and more durable, and more, you know, unencumbered can come to life, is really exciting. So I feel like this moment right now is this moment of abundance for so many fitness professionals. Because whether you're focused on creating, you know, a new business, or just taking ownership of your identity and your own personal brand, or even just renegotiating you know what life will look like, when you do go back to the gym like right opportunity right now to like completely reshuffle the deck in a way that's, that's genuine and authentic to you. So as much as this last year has been traumatic, I really feel like it's allowed us to evolve, like in this moment, where we can really be what we want to be if we're brave enough to just take the first step towards it.

Will:  

Totally. So on that note, why don't I want you to tell me a little bit about the webinar series that you're doing now and the different topics that that you've tackled, because we'll put links to this in the show notes. So they're all recorded, right? So anyone that's catching this podcast, after the event can always catch up on webinar. But tell us a little bit about because I know it's a series and you're going through a different number of different perspectives. So maybe just take us through what those perspectives are, in the knowledge that you're only halfway through. I think

Rodney  

So, it's a four part series and the impetus for it. Literally, my co host, Frank have reached out to me after he read one of the articles that you had mentioned, and was surprised that there was just not as much engagement, right, you know, even in the aftermath of George Floyd, and everything else, there just wasn't as much engagement. So they got us talking. And we were like, hey, you know, we both think this is important. Why don't we just create an opportunity for the industry just to come back to the table, and just to restart the conversation, let's not set a lot of over like high reaching, you know, expectations on this, but let's just do it, because it's the right thing. So we created this four part series. The first part was a conversation starter, literally just saying, hey, it's time to pick up where we left off. So we had, you know, folks representing club industry, we had folks representing independent clubs. And it was really about saying, Hey, this is something we need to talk about. And let's really get back on the same page as to why this is important. So that

Will:  

Because there was a little bit of a flurry, right, like there was a there was a big deal in the middle of last year. And then winter happened, and COVID was way worse over Christmas than we expected it to be. And and now it feels that we're coming out of that fog a little bit fingers crossed and vaccines, that vaccines are on the way, but it does feel like there was a conversation that was like a top of mind for everyone that has dropped away. And how do you bring it back in a way that potentially can be more inclusive and and less divisive than it maybe was last year?

Rodney  

Exactly, exactly. So that got us started. We did that first panel on MLK Day, on January 18th. Yeah, so the second panel, we just finished the recording on that, that'll be released on February 15, is entitled white voices speak, can diversity really help the fitness industry and similar to the article that we started this whole conversation with? We intentionally went with a very provocative title, because we want it to get people's attention because we had the belief, I felt strongly that so many people have become desensitized to the topic, that the very people that we needed to engaged did not feel welcomed in the conversation. So we want to say, hey, let's all get together and facilitate a conversation just to validate and be real about what we're thinking and feeling. So all the things that you shared earlier, you know, from being hypersensitive to being uncertain to the polarizing extremes. You know, the second webinar is about really bringing that to light and humanizing our experiences so that more of us can get on the same page. I think in our industry, we generally do care about people. So there are more folks, I believe, I believe this, I will not believe otherwise. There are more folks in the fitness industry that really do believe in justice and equality then there probably are other industries. So then the third one webinar is entitled a Masterclass on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion and the transition there is to start building. To say, hey, no matter who you are, where you are, what are the tools that you need? What are the things that you can start doing now to start making progress in your sphere of influence wherever that is, whether you're a corporate, you know, executive, or you're a ground level employee, how can you get started and make a difference where you are. And then the last panel discussion is really bringing it all together and saying, We are one community, we really are one tribe. So the message there is diversity, equity, and inclusion programs can't just be about minority people. They got to be there, everybody has to buy into the vision, everybody has to feel that it's a part of the mission. And that, to me, will actually directly hits the comment you made earlier about, you know, perspective or stance on quotas. You know, if we're all on the same team, and we're all marching in the same direction, and the end zone looks the same to you as it does to me. Yeah. And that's not a problem. And I think we want to make sure that we end this series on that point, that we've got to bring everybody along for the ride, not just the people of color, not just the LGBTQ folks, it's everybody. It's all or none, period.

Will:  

Yeah. And it's the only way you're going to get this, the only way you can make real progress is when everybody is along for the ride. Right. And I think it's a, it's a tough place to be. And it's a bit of a pivot point. And it's it's the one thing that I think a lot of people have struggled with. And as I said, like I can get back in an interesting time for me to have this conversation with you. Because I have argued with my father all week, and I have now that we've taken the time to talk and realize that like we just have much more in common than we have differing, but it's made me realize how easy it is to get caught up in the noise. And as we said, right at the start, you know, like newspapers and TMZ articles, and Facebook posts will always lead with the controversy. And unfortunately, that's just the way it's gonna be. And so as people that are wanting to, you know, have a positive impact on other people's lives, which I think is why people get into instructing, well, I sort of got into it because I wanted to be a star. But when I got mature, I realized that I wanted to help people. But if you're someone that's been instructing for a long time, and a lot of our listeners have been teaching group fitness for a long time, you're obviously in it not just because you enjoy what you're doing, and you love fitness, but because you are you really care about having a positive impact on people's lives. And understanding that we need to like, take time to get deeper into it and understand other people's perspectives and appreciate that we can't understand how it is to walk in someone else's shoes, no matter what color or ethnicity or sexual orientation. It's just impossible, right? And so you just have to be open and understanding to appreciating perspectives, and other people and other people have to afford you that same courtesy.

Rodney  

Absolutely, no, completely and totally agree. I just think about, you know, my experiences over the years and just the journey and the path that we've been down. The older I get, the more it makes sense, the wisdom that will folk tend to have. 

Will:  

Yeah, I agree with you. So we're been in the industry probably about the same time I think, like 20 odd years of teaching. I agree. Like I i understand the point I'm at now, which is about to turn 40, I understand a lot more than I did. But the other thing I appreciate is how much less I understand than I will in another 20 years. And it's and then that accumulation of wisdom, I think does does explain a lot why people just don't get so riled up when they're older. Right?

Rodney  

Well, and they, it's easier for them to show empathy and to, to remain calm, you know, in moments of conflict. Yeah. You know, even as I think for a lot of us as we start to mature, you know, as we know, sometimes when you get into your late 30s and early 40s, you know, in the fitness industry, oh, you're getting older, but we actually have a responsibility. I'm glad you brought that point up, I think we have a responsibility to see ourselves as elders within our community and to see ourselves as mentors, you know, of newer and younger generations. And you don't have to be 18 years old, in the fitness industry to be a mentor, you know, you got 20 years under our belts, like, think about the struggles.

Will:  

Doesn't look like it. I know, it's hard to tell. 

Rodney  

I was like, I was gonna comment. I'm like, how are you younger than me, but that's a whole lot to have offline. But, but think about the struggles that we've been through. I think anyone listening can identify with this. Like, we have a responsibility and are mature 10, 15, 20 years in the industry, to help other people get to where we got to and beyond like that, you know, I think about you know, the instructors that we used to train back in the day or even the members that come to your classes, these are your children, you want to create a better reality for them. And I think one thing that we are kind of missing right now in our industry is that we don't do a good job of mentoring our own. We don't.

Will:  

Yeah, I agree. And that like that is one of the sort of big reasons that I actually started this podcast in the first place was that I realized that I was speaking to, you know, hundreds of instructors all the time, but they were SH1FT instructors. And I felt like a lot of ... And Zumba were speaking to Zumba instructors and Les Mills speaks to Les Mills instructors, and, and that's all great, and everyone's providing amazing value. But I felt that there was like a level missing, which is we all used to go to like conventions, and you know, fitness conventions and certain other sorts of things. And that just really fell away, right. And so there's not that much opportunity for instructors to get together in a way that isn't about a specific brand, or pushing a specific agenda, like brand agenda, real commercial agenda, but just a space to talk and hopefully, in bringing people like you on that have wisdom in an area they want to pass on that people that are listening to this are starting to like appreciate some different perspectives that they might not have had before. So that's that's like my small hope in starting this podcast. and fingers crossed. So, if it's working, let me know.

Rodney  

I think so. I mean, I think it just brings me to another point like for the folks who are listening to this, it may not seem like it. And I think we always struggle with this as instructors, the work that we do matters, like in a very significant way. And oftentimes the members that come to your classes, whether they're in person, or that engage with you, you are their connection to a world that is so much more diverse and so much more enriched than probably the one that they see every day, right? It's almost like that, when people tell us stories about you know, why you should talk to strangers, because you never know if that person, you know, you may be the only conversation that person has had, you know, in that day, and that demonstration of kindness can have such a huge impact. But as you know, fitness instructors, were able to influence people so powerfully just by being who we are. So what I would say is in the midst of all this cray cray, keep loving your members, keep loving your followers, right, and don't discard them for not being able to validate you and the way that you want to be validated. Because they may need a minute, right, but they've already shown up, you know, they showed up for you as a participant, they just may need some nurturing and guidance to be able to show up for you on a higher and a deeper level. But you are that connection, and you just have to be willing to take ownership of that responsibility.

Will:  

Absolutely. And I think that is a wonderful, wonderful place for us to finish on that positive note, I'm going to ask you one question. And I forgot to tell you what at the top, so I'm going to drop it on you if you had a piece of advice for a so one piece of advice that you're going to pass on to a group fitness instructor for navigating the future. And it can be related to what we talked about, or it can be related to completely it's like anything in the world, what would be the one piece of advice that you think instructors need to know, as we move forward into 2021 and beyond?

Rodney  

Get out of your bubble. And I'll say that, like I think you know, COVID probably makes this resonate with people more strongly than it would have before. But when I say get out of your bubble, I can say it many different ways. Get out of your bubble, break the box, like you know, the the mental framework that you've been living in and operating under for however many years. Yeah, that framework was not designed to serve you and to serve your greatness. Your greatness lives beyond that box, it lives beyond that bubble. So whether it's you know, participating and you know, events like this, to broaden your perspective and to focus on your education, whether it's learning unfamiliar skill sets, or just staying committed to interacting with people that have perspectives beyond your own, that have experiences either beyond your own or nowhere in comparison, like maintaining that humility, that's gonna unlock I think your potential to be creative in a way that will allow you to be your absolute best when the time is right. But you've got to get out of the bubble. You know, you've got to break the box. You can't just settle for whatever the heck someone gives you. Your great you can't sit around waiting on your greatness to show up. Go get it. 

Will:  

Perfect. Rodney Morris, thank you so much for joining me, we will put show notes to the webinar series. So if people are listening to this on catch up, then they can catch it on webinar, we'll make sure the links or we can catch the live webinars when they go out. Thank you so much for joining.

Rodney  

Thank you, Sir. It's been great.

Will:  

So that was my chat with Rodney. Two things really stood out for me. The first is that most of us sit somewhere in the middle of this debate. And many times we're paralyzed with fear that will say or do the wrong thing. And so we choose to do nothing. As Rodney says, don't be afraid. We all have so much to learn. And just like you have to work a muscle, you also have to work at truly understanding these sensitive topics from the perspective of others. You won't get it right every time but that shouldn't stop you from trying. I love Ronnie's approach of never judging or chastising someone for trying their best and getting wrong. Even if they continue to get it wrong, he helps and guides them to a better understanding. Secondly, and this one's important as group fitness instructors, it's really likely that you're already leading a community of diverse individuals. And as Rodney rightly points out, this might be the most diverse and inclusive experience that many of your class goers have during that week. Remember that and that most of us spend the majority of time in an echo chamber surrounded by people just like us. So never underestimate your role in championing diversity and difference, whether it's fitness level, skin color, religion, or body type. By making everyone feel included, valued and respected. You're setting a standard that will flow through to each and every one of your class goers. So just think of the change that you can inspire. If this is a topic that interests you, it's worthwhile also going back and listening to episode five of the podcast, which also talks about diversity. But here we do a deep dive into body image with Vanessa. Finally, I encourage you to challenge me on this topic. What can we do on this podcast to give you a more diverse and inclusive view of the fitness industry? please get in touch. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.