Denise:

One of the things for everybody to remember is how the classes delivered that determines the license required or who's responsible. So, for example, I want to make sure we talk about social media because social media sort of the exception to the rule, we'll get there in a minute. But I'll tell you the way Muscle Mixes has pivoted. What we've done is we've created a package where an instructor can pay one flat fee of $600, $629 a year, and use all of our royalty free music on unlimited videos for the whole year. And I use it through an app so you can change the tempo, you can mix your create your own mixes, all that kind of stuff. And, you know, use it unlimited for a whole year. 

Will:  

Hey, I'm Will Brereton, founder of SH1FT Fitness. And this is Group Fitness Real Talk, a show about how to survive and even thrive as an instructor in 2020 and beyond. Music, it's a topic that I get asked a lot about from instructors, and it's a very complex topic. But with the rise of teaching virtually this year, everything instructors thought they knew about music rights was flipped on its head. And that's exactly why I wanted to dedicate today's podcast to this subject. My guest today is Denise Imbesi, CEO and founder of Muscle Mixes Music. Denise got into the music side of fitness back in the 80s when people still used vinyl to teach classes. We chat about what life was like for a fitness instructor back then, as well as everything an instructor needs to know about music rights and restrictions in 2020. We're gonna unpack the subject of music rights, licenses and the key differences between teaching live and virtually. If you teach group fitness to music, particularly online, then this episode is worth a listen. Enjoy my chat with Denise. So, Denise Imbesi, Welcome to the podcast. How are you? 

Denise  

Thank you so nice. I'm doing great. Nice to be here, Will.

Will:  

And where are you dialing in from?

Denise  

I'm sorry?

Will:  

So where are you dialing in from? I've been doing so many podcasts lately, my voice is cracking.

Denise  

I know that's okay. I understand. I am here in Orlando, Florida, USA. And it is always warm here, which is a good thing, but also a bad thing. It gets old after a while.

Will:  

Ah, it's cold here. Yeah, I'll be happy with a little bit of warm. So why don't we start by you telling telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do within the fitness industry.

Denise  

Sure. I'm Denise Imbesi and CEO and founder of Muscle Mixes Music. I started the company back in 1988. Some of you weren't born yet. And I started the company because I was a DJ. But I was also a fitness instructor and realized very quickly that there was not a solution for continuous nonstop mixes in 32 counts, you know, and the need that was needed back then. So we used to sell cassettes and CDs. And now believe it or not, we still sell CDs, but mostly...

Will:  

Do you really? You still sell CDs? 

Will:  

which

Denise  

Isn't that crazy? It's Yeah, please don't buy CDs anymore. Well, you know, I mean, we don't mind we'll keep doing it as long as people keep buying it. Um, but obviously more people are downloading and using our app now. And because people are consuming music through streaming mostly. So we are a fitness music company that specializes in music for the fitness professional. 

Will:  

Perfect. So the reason that you and I talked before and the reason I thought would be great to get you on the podcast is that music has come into high relief. Obviously, it's something that's always been super important to fitness instructors. But this year, some of the restrictions and ways in which music can be used and utilized has really taken some instructors by surprise in terms of what they can and can't do when it comes to teaching live and virtual and on demand and all these different things. So I thought it would be really good for someone who is an expert within the music industry, particularly for fitness to kind of give our instructors a really good explanation of why the rights around music are so complicated when it comes to fitness classes. And so I thought you would be the perfect person to do it.

Denise  

Sure, no problem. I'll do my best. And I and I do want to preface two things. Number one that licensed music licensing is different from country to country. However, you know, there's some just general basic rules that apply everywhere. It's just the UK is actually the most different.

Will:  

Yeah, this is about different bodies that are collecting money are different. 

Denise  

Yeah, well, you know, they actually have a really great way of managing it in the UK, they have one central place, one central sort of clearing house for the artists, which we don't have in the US or in many other countries. So, but yeah, the reason why it's been difficult is because up until recently, up until COVID, you know, in March, it has been the responsibility of the facility to pay the public performance license, although in the UK is a little different, but most in most cases, it's been the responsibility of the facility. And the instructor just kind of shows up, teaches their class and leaves. The minute it goes to virtual, the music licensing changes. Because when music is synced up with video, it's a different license altogether. And that's why it's been, you know, everybody, I mean, we've been bombarded with questioning. And I think it's great in a way because instructors want to learn, you know, what's happening. So it's become now the responsibility of the individual instructor, because before you would show up at a place of work, and just teach your class and leave me I know, it's a little different in the UK. So again...

Will:  

Don't worry, don't worry. We can we can skirt over the UK, and I can always do a little addendum. I should have said, Okay, now my background is actually as a intellectual property lawyer. So I wasn't specializing in music licensing, but I spent many years in my early career dealing with all the elements of copyright. And so I have read many, many legal pieces relating to all of the different copyrights that existed in various place. 

Denise  

Awesome. Awesome. Well, and I will say that I am not an attorney, I would like to say that disclaimer, I'm just a person that knows a lot of stuff about music licensing, because this is our business. My business. Yeah. So yeah, so it yeah, that's why it's changed so much, because now it relies on the responsibility of the responsibility lies on that of the individual structure, because in a way, it's their business, right? It's their own business. And that's why it's changed. And do you want me to go into the detail of the different licensing? 

Will:  

So I think, Well, I think what instructors are really like to understand is, what are the different types, because I know that one thing that really confuses people is that there are different rights that exist in different parts of a piece of music. And I think if we could break it right back to sort of all the different artists that contribute to music, and what rights they might have, because I think a lot of instructors just see a finished product on their Spotify and just think, why can't I just play that I'm already paying for Spotify? Why can't I put that in my class? So maybe you back right back and talk about, like, how the different rights elements relate to the different parts of the artist goes into a song? 

Denise  

Yeah, sure, no problem. Um, yeah. And a lot of people don't know this. You're right. It's complicated. It is very complicated. And to create a song, and you know, this is in general, there's usually someone who writes the written word, the lyrics, and writes the music. That's called the writer. And then there's somebody that performs the song, it's usually called the artist. So because writers and artists are typically not lawyers, or accountants, or marketing people, the writer is usually represented by a publisher and the publisher, I like to call the publisher is an accountant, they keep track of your money, and they go after your money. Yes. And then the Yeah, then the other side of it is the artist is represented typically by a record label. And the record label is the marketing machine. That's sort of in general. Now, sometimes when you look at Madonna, for example, she's the writer. She's the publisher. She's the artists and she's the record label. Yeah.

Denise  

absolutely. This

Will:  

This comes down to the reason why Beyonce is the co-writer on every song on a Beyonce album, every single song. 

Denise  

Exactly. And, and, you know, back in the 60s 70s, when songs were written, there was almost, you know, almost one, two writers. That's it. Now, there's like 10 writers, you know, oh, that guy was in the room and he got water for someone. So let's put him in there. No, it's not really like that. But I mean, there are so many writers. And and you know, being a writer gives you a lot of money because you know, whether you perform it or not, I mean, that's where the money is. So, so in general, there's the there's two separate licenses. The writer slash publisher, the artist slash label, again, sometimes they're one in the same, but that's the way it's done and every writer publisher in the, the US is the only place in the world that has not agreed to a particular agreement that happened worldwide where, in the US back in the 50s when music was played on the radio artists were not getting paid for that music to play really, at all. The writer was but the artist was not and actually I don't even want to say was it's still that way with terrestrial radio. But with internet radio, they smartened up. They said, Oh, no, we're not doing that again. So now they get paid when it's played on the you know, internet, radio, Pandora and that kind of stuff. So they're the, the US is the only country where they didn't sign, I forgot the name of that group that treaty was but so yeah, so a lot of artists were kind of pissed. But now they're happy because now they are getting paid. So I don't want to get you know, it gets really confusing. But in general, there are two licenses, or two ownerships, I should say. And, you know, the writer publisher has certain every country is different, but they have certain organizations that represent them. It's a little bit more organized for the writer, publisher, it's a little when I say organized, meaning set fees, you don't have to negotiate not all the time, but most of the time, whereas artists labels, you've got almost always negotiate whatever usage you're choosing.

Will:  

And this all stems back from you.

Will:  

Yeah, I guess to it all stems down from the fact that I think that because we have all grown up consuming music for free, on the radio or, or, you know, on on apps, and that are advertising funded, we sometimes have this sort of this supposition that music is something that is free, rather than something that has value, right. And so it should be something that you can use as you wish, when in reality, people have created it. And like anything that anyone has ever created, there's a value associated with it. And so a lot of these rights organizations exist, and whether or not they are nice rights organizations or not nice rights organizations, and I have different views about different ones, sometimes they can be, they can be a little bit rough, what they are seeking to do is ensure that creators of content, and we all know what a content creator is now, right, but if these are the original content creators, from when the radio first came about, ensuring that people that create content get paid by the commercial businesses that use that content to further their own businesses. So a radio station, for example, will be taking money from advertisers. And they are doing that through using the creations of artists, either writers or performers. And those bodies exist to collect their fair share of what they have created. 

Denise  

Absolutely, in the same way that an instructor wouldn't want someone to use their, you know, their video of their content, right. You know, without getting paid or using it to to earn, you know, revenue and stuff like that. So, yeah, for sure, and you explained it really well, because you're an intellectual property attorney. You probably do a better job than I did. But yeah, so that's, that's sort of yes, you're right. That's the underlying, and it is confusing, because we have gotten spoiled with all the free. You know, I put my hands in quotes. Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, it has been free, you know, Napster started that. And then, of course, now with Spotify, and a lot of those companies, you pay 9.95. USD, and a month, and you get to, you know, and they get I think people get confused. Like, what do you mean, I, it's my music now. But it's really not because once the subscriptions or it goes away, so, yeah, so a precedent has been set. And there is that frame of mind? For sure. Whereas in the music industry, I noticed it's completely different. You know, Netflix did the right thing, right from the beginning. We don't have that perception. We know it's okay. You know, we know that it's required to pay to see a movie, copy a movie, you can't download a new movie without paying. So. Yeah, so there's a lot of conflict. So it's very complicated. And now that things are virtual instructors are so confused. 

Will:  

Yes, so let's wind it back to when you started off in the in the late 80s, and 90s, when virtual fitness wasn't a thing. So let's let's take that, like, confusing factor out of it. So tell me when you were creating the stuff that you were creating with muscle mixers back when you started? What was the problem that you were trying to solve for instructors?

Denise  

Okay, that's a great question. So at that time, it's hard to imagine but there weren't any compilations. A compilation is an album or a mix of different artists on in one place. It just didn't exist back then. Now everybody's making playlists. Back then, yeah, I mean, the only thing that existed if some of you remember was like the best of the 70s best in the 60s, k tell records, that kind of stuff. But other than that, it just didn't exist. So whenever we called record labels, they would hang up on me and say, Are you crazy? No way can you do that? So the only option instructor had was a record, a vinyl record of individual albums, or a song, you know, they're...

Will:  

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I have to wind it back and ask this question. So yeah, some of the original instructors in the 80s because this predates me, I'm like late 90s. Very, very late. Yet 2000. Are you telling me that there were some instructors of fitness classes who would have like, multiple records like big black records, and they would put the needle down teach a track, then change the vinyl, then put the needle down...

Denise  

Absolutely. Yep.

Will:  

Oh my god. 

Denise  

They didn't have any other choice. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, that's they didn't have any choice. You know, that's all there was. 

Will:  

And now it the app doesn't work for three seconds instructors --

Denise  

-- It's so true. That's so true. You know, because they followed the dance teacher and the dance teacher used to do that, you know, yeah, put a song on dance, you know.

Will:  

But they would just put the same song on and then rewind back to the start and do the exactly the same song over and over again, right. There wasn't quite the requirement to have the the mix as you said.

Denise  

Yeah, yeah. So. So at the time, when we started in 1988, there was nobody doing that, I should say, legally. I mean, they were starting to become bootleg DJs that would get on the side of the road. I lived in New York at the time. So on a street, you know, they'd have cassettes that they you could buy that were illegal. And that's kind of what an instructor had to do was call him DJ and say, I'll pay you $100 I mean, that's what they used to pay back then I'll pay you $100, mix me a tape. 

Will:  

Crazy. So like you get the high speed dubbing. So I remember this well, from when I was a child of getting, I think my favorite type I got so this at this ages me was actually Paula Abdul Shut up and Dance mixes. I remember I got it for like, my 8th birthday, it's so good. In fact, I've got it on my Spotify now. I go back to it every now and again.

Denise  

Good stuff. Good stuff. Yeah. So that's what they did. Yeah. So we said, I was teaching and I was a DJ and I went, nobodies, this is a lot of work, you know. And that's, that's what the need was the pain point was, how do we get a mixtape legally? And I, you know, I didn't know anything about business. I was not, you know, not a business person. I was a DJ and an instructor, you know, and figured it out. I used to DJ till two, three in the morning, the next morning, wake up and teach a class. I could never do that again. 

Will:  

But tell me a little bit as how did you figure it out? What were the steps you went through in order to get from, this is a need that instructors have to I'm going to start a company that fulfills this need. 

Denise  

It was very difficult because it didn't exist. You know, when you're working in an area that doesn't exist, it's much harder. I would like I said, I would call the labels and they hang up on me. So when I started to do was called independent labels, there were you know, fortunately, with dance music, there's a lot of independent labels, the create sort of the underground style music, and I started doing deals with them. A deal would be like, pay me in advance, and you can use you could sell 1000 cassette tapes. Yeah. And then you'd have to pay me more, you know, that kind? Yeah. And then we got to a point where they were talking the whole world, nobody had a solution in the whole world. So we started getting calls from England, or Australia or Japan. And those rights that we cleared with those independent labels did not allow us to sell globally. Yeah. And we decided we made a hard decision that you know, what, let's eliminate one license, and just produce covers. And that's, that was a big decision at the time. Because we didn't want to you know, we wanted to use the originals, but we couldn't get. 

Will:  

So when you say covers you mean original songs with before with not original performance. 

Denise  

Correct. We re-recorded the song and we still do this. We actually go in, yes, it's the same lyrics, same musical arrangement. Well, sometimes it's not. But so we still are liable to pay the writer/publisher. But because we become the artist, we become the record label, we eliminate one piece, and that allowed us to sell it globally. 

Will:  

Right. So the and, this I think, is one of the sort of one of the biggest and this is where it gets it starts the complicated beginning digital, I want to put a pin in that for the time being. So I think that when instructors think about the different types of music, they think about cover music, which is the stuff they hear on the radio with a different singer. And then they think about original music and that sort of as a big distinction and obviously, cover music is the one that doesn't that doesn't force you to pay performing Rights and licensing? 

Denise  

Correct. That's, that's absolutely right. 

Will:  

So so maybe you can tell me a little bit about the US. So for the UK listeners, they will know that there are a lot of gym chains who just only want to use Performing Rights free music, because I think it's like they changed, they did a big thing with the various agencies here a few years ago. But essentially, it's, you know, like, one or two pounds, or potentially more than that now, I actually forget, per class for using original music. And obviously, you times that over a, you know, 10 class timetable time, seven days a week, 52 weeks a year, that really adds up. So how does it work in the States? 

Denise  

Yeah, cuz we have. So what we do, and I guess you guys call it ppl free, right? Yeah, exactly. Um, the way it works here, from my standpoint, is that we eliminate what's called a master, the sound okay, so the owner of what's of the artist and that arrangement, or that production, that performance is called a sound, you know, sound recording, or also called a master, who owns the master. So we eliminate the master, and eliminate Brianna from the equation. But the writer, the writer still exists? That's right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Sometimes it is Rihanna. But sometimes it's not. So we it's very easy for us, all we have to do is by using the cover, we pay a set rate of nine cents and a half cents per song per download. To the publisher, it's so easy, we'll eliminate one whole complicated thing.

Will:  

And is the difficulty there that, that it's a standard fee for the month for the right for the writers license. But the performance, the performance element can vary so much, depending on who the performer is, right? Because you have someone that's, you know, like part of their own band, they're producing great music, but they're not famous. And then you've got Beyonce and the cost associated with that is so varied. Whereas by getting rid of the artist and using cover music, you're just being able to properly figure out maintain and predict what the cost of that song. 

Denise  

Exactly. It's a set fee as opposed to having to negotiate. And, you know, sometimes the artists can say no, that's the other thing. I mean, and they did say no to us back them. A lot. So it was unheard of, you know, I mean, they just announced Beyonce kind of deal with Peloton the other day. I mean, that kind of thing would never happen back then. Yeah. But you know, of course, the labels and the artists are a lot more comfortable working with an established organization like peloton that already has the numbers, they don't want to take risk. And they shouldn't, because they know that what they have is very valuable. So yeah, that's the reason why a lot of our you know, fitness music companies back then we went to covers because we had to make that decision. And it was hard because we want to, you know, we want to give, and we've done a great job of, you know, getting as closely as we could to the original and sometimes in some cases, if it's an old Motown song, it actually sounds better because you get rid of that, ya know, the sound of the record the dust on the on the album, so and we've pumped up some songs and stuff like that, you know, some covers, I mean, a really popular like, I'm every woman by Whitney Houston, you know, yeah, it was done by Chaka Khan originally, yes. So covers, if they're done well can be great. You know, sometimes better sometimes. So, yeah. 

Will:  

So the question that I have, and this is, this is where I think so I think that, for the most part, instructors really understand the concept of cover music, and how not using the original artist can mean that there are less fees associated with it, because I feel that when you're teaching an in person class, that was always, that was always the way it was. And I think people were pretty, pretty sort of understanding of that. I know the Beachbody used to use us to it with Beachbody live. They use cover music. So you know, it was original songs you hear on the radio, but it was covered. Les Mills have, you know big music production where they cover a lot of their musical that they do use some originals, because they've got some relationships with production houses and music producers. But I think the bit that has taken everybody by surprise this year is that I think that a lot of instructors assumed that if they had cover music, they would be able to use that music to teach online. So they thought that the original I know I can't use the original but the cover one I can use so maybe you could just explain to those listening, why is it that the cover music that a lot of instructors thought of as fine to use whenever is not okay, in digital? 

Denise  

Wow, that's a great question. And you know, I haven't heard that question much. But it makes sense because here we are, you know, all these years saying it's fine, it's fine, you're good, you're good. And then all of a sudden you can't use it on. Yeah. 

Will:  

Gyms closed, you've got no classes and also that music we told you was covered, it's not. So basically you can do it in -- silence.

Denise  

Exactly. Okay, so the answer to that is, hm, it's complicated. So remember, we talked about earlier how there's a set fee, when you pay, it's called the mechanical use license for selling. Okay, so there's two licenses that almost everybody's familiar with. Number one is a public performance license. So when you play music in a public place, the facilities responsible for playing it, it's also very reasonable price, couple hundred us dollars a year, you know, easy peasy, right? Go to what we do selling a piece of work. And we paid nine and a half cents per use per song per use.

Will:  

So when you say, say we, you're meaning Muscle Mixes? So the music that plays in the background of the gym, that's that's already done in a global, pretty simply done all across the world. Yes, then you've got the price that you charge to instructors, so Muscle Mixes pays pays a set amount, and you can predict that and charge to instructors and then they're allowed to use that to deliver their classes. But then, there's an added layer of complexity...

Denise  

Okay. So now, once it goes to video, it's the video. That's the problem. Yeah, once it goes to video, now the publishers come in and say, hmmm I want more money. There's no set rate. There is no set rate. So not only do you have to negotiate with the artist, you have to negotiate with the publisher. Right? And oftentimes, they want an advance in advance could be, let's say, $1,000 for a song.

Will:  

Yep.

Denise  

And then you pay additional three cents every time that our that videos downloaded or sold on the DVD or streamed. 

Will:  

Yeah. And so you talked about the nine cents before. So that nine cents was for playing it in public, right? That was the license it was bought for.

Denise  

It was for us to sell it.

Will:  

to sell it yet to sell it for the end user being played in pubilc by the instructor. But then the the other license that doesn't have that sort of fixed tariff fixed fee, is the price of making a copy of the of the of the song, right? Is that is that how a powers were working in the States? Because I know that concept with that kind of copyright is that the minute you put it down to video, you've copied the song and made a duplicate? And that's not something that's covered within the license?

Denise  

Well, it's the video that's the issue. It's the once it goes to video, it's subject to a synchronization license and synchronization licenses in the US and I'm pretty sure everywhere have to be negotiated. There is no I don't know how it is in the UK? I really don't, there's no set fee. So because of that it makes it really complicated. And sometimes they say no, it's not only the fee, it's also they could say no where you can't reach the person or the person died or nobody knows who you know, manages the estate of that. Yeah, there's just so much complexity when you have to, you know, it's Prince, for example, is very difficult to license his stuff.

Will:  

Yeah, there are certain there certain, or well known within the industry of people working on your side of the industry of don't go near this stuff.

Denise  

Yeah, that's a great question. And that's unfortunate, because it would be nice for them to be able to use it. Unfortunately, our mechanical use license does not carry over to video. And that's the reason, yeah.

Will:  

Yeah. And the thing is, is that you've so you've had and this comes with, you know, a massive change in the way instructors are teaching classes, because I obviously know having worked on the production side of fitness and when we used to, you know, create the Beachbody live videos, we wouldn't use the music that we would provide to instructors, we would use, yeah, so we would use different music. And so for the very reason that we were teaching insanity live on video and that same music that we were going to pass on to instructors for say round 12, round 20, whatever. Yeah, we didn't use that when we filmed, we used completely rights free music that was created for us bespoke by a DJ who would then so that all the rights are bought out and we paid a certain fixed fee with that for that. And then the tempo of the music would just match the tempo of the music and in the version will be given out to instructors. And so if you've been working on the video side of it, you know this and this is why like all of those big Beachbody productions do not use original music right? Yeah, because there's a there's a, there's a, a, an amount to be paid every time you use original music. And so one of the issues with the use case of instructors is that you have people like yourselves and all of the music producers that have gone and created this music for a certain use case, which is teaching in a class. And then suddenly every instructor wanted to teach it online. But unfortunately, the law just doesn't work like that and doesn't work that way. The ways of using it aren't unlimited.

Denise  

No that's yeah, I forgot all about that. You're absolutely right, well, with Beachbody live they we would we would produce covers for Beachbody for them to use just for you instructors to use in class. But the minute it went to video, they would have to clear royalty free music. Yeah. I like to call it as popular and unfamiliar.

Will:  

I actually had a similar conversation with another person who works for a, a music producer. And he's campaigning to get rid of the term royalty free because he says that it comes with connetations that implies, it's implied that it's not as good as other music.

Denise  

Exactly.

Will:  

Okay, so now we've got we've got this position that's always been the case. But it hasn't really touched on a lot of instructors, because most instructors weren't doing online stuff. And people just anyway, if they did see something online or stuck it on their YouTube, YouTube might have taken it down, but there wasn't the focus on it. So potentially, a lot of people got away with using original music or using cover music in digital fitness, just because no one was really focused on it. Flash forward is 2020. Everybody in fitness is teaching digitally. There's a massive big focus on doing it. What was what have you done for muscle mixers to allow people to teach online? So there is types of music that can be used? We talked about that? Have you pivoted to the types of music that can be used across the board?

Denise  

Yeah, we sure have. And one of the things for everybody to remember is how the classes delivered that the tariff that determines the license required or who's responsible. So for example, I want to make sure we talk about social media, because social media is sort of the exception to the rule. We'll get there in a minute yet, but I'll tell you the way Muscle Mixes has pivoted. What we've done is we've created a package where an instructor can pay one flat fee of $600 629 a year, and use all of our royalty free music on unlimited videos for the whole year. And I use it through an app so you can change the tempo, you can mix your create your own mixes all that kind of stuff. And pet you know, use it unlimited for a whole year. Now, we didn't have that before. We've always had royalty free music, unfamiliar music. And because we would we would license it out to various facilities, or for production companies for video and TV. Yeah, um, but it was about 30% of our business. And now everything's flipped. Yeah, it's a bit hard about this. So yeah, that's what at least at least for a while, yeah, hopefully, at least for a while. knows how long it's gonna last. I know, it's crazy. But yeah, so we've done that for the instructor, we've, we've also, you know, we have some one off, so you can download, we allow you to use everything, all of our royalty free music on social media and live streaming. But when it goes to on demand, that's when you you're subject to that 629 you know, on demand, meaning if you repress the record button when you're teaching, and put it up on your own private website and sell it either as a download or as a subscription fee for the end user to play it as often as they want.

Will:  

And so for instructors listening like I like I'm I think they kind of like if hopefully, they're beginning to get the idea of why there's all these different structures within music. So tell me a little bit about so the unfamiliar royalty free music that instructors can use, how when and where they like so they can provide it they pay the right amount of license, they collect it in person, they can use it live streaming, they can pre record and put it into an on demand library. How does that music get created? Like Tell me a little bit about that because I know from you know, my work in the industry that a lot of that music is actually really good music and I think it's often got a bad rap but particularly this year when many DJs and artists are out of work I know that there's just a lot of really, really quality content and quality quality music that is now coming into that realm when it didn't before.

Denise  

Yeah, that's interesting. That's that's interesting that you're saying that because you know there was a time there were in Hollywood they stopped producing movies and stopped producing TV shows and stuff. And because of that all those there are companies out there their music companies that are just royalty free music companies and and their biggest businesses, the film industry. Yeah, so when I stopped producing, they were calling us up and saying you

Will:  

So they flipped in turn so they couldn't get your call taken. And now you have people calling and saying, please can I create some music for you to give to instructors teach anywhere they like.

Denise  

Exactly, yeah, yeah, take it, take it. Yeah. So um, again, there's a lot of great music out there. And the way we work is we hire, either we hire producer to produce a song, or we do both we hire to produce a certain number of songs. Yeah. Or we go through somebody producers, libraries, like the ones that we're talking to now and see what they have. Because you know, the wonderful thing about musicians and music producers is that always producing great music. And some of them have music that nobody even knows about. So rather than just sit there in their computer, they're willing to give it to us put it into our library. And if it's used, we paid them. Yeah. So we've done a really great job. We've partnered with DJ Brian, how we're working with him on producing a lot of great music, and he's allowed us to license sublicense his library. And I love I love Bryan because he's an instructor so he gets it. He knows what kind of music is motivating. I think the biggest challenge with royalty free music is those people that teach a dance fitness type class, because it has to be more chorus verse chorus, raw, you know, and they like to have a set, you know, lyrics become important, you know, something like that, but it

Will:  

I've noticed there is more lyric based music coming into royalty free.

Denise  

Mm hmm. Yep, We sure are. We have a lot of really great stuff. It's Yeah, it's a lot easier today than it was back in the 80s to produce a song I'm not saying

Will:  

If you're someone that's got some talent and a Mac with GarageBand, or, you know, whatever computer software you want, you can essentially create a song.

Denise  

Absolutely. I mean, there's no, you're never gonna be able, there's nothing that takes the place of a song that you heard so much and love. And people, you know, the, the participants can sing the words to. I mean, I get that I totally get it. However, like you said, there are some songs you know, that we've been we've we made a commitment early in March, when this first started to say, we are not going to just put out royalty free music, that's just, you know, elevator type music, yeah, we are going to make sure that the music improves. And we've been doing that. And we've been working really hard, and putting out great music and keep putting out more and more music. So the more we have available, the better it is for everybody.

Will:  

I think that is a I certainly would say this, that there's a mental block with a lot of instructors who have historically used music that they know, with not using that music. And I think that they think if people don't have that music, that they recognize that the class will be bad, and they're almost scared of being like caught, like with their pants down in front of their class. And by pants down it means music that they don't know therefore all of the all of the focus on me, but I just like I've spent a lot of this year sort of explaining to instructors that you know, the music is undoubtedly a super important part of the exercise experience and no one will ever take that away. But I'm there when when limitations are in place, then you just have to get creative with with what you're what you're doing. I think we've talked about this when we started filming shift, we used to take the unfamiliar royalty free and filmed to it and then I realized that it would just be so much faster for our production process if we filmed without music. So all of our shift all of our shift, instructor, instructor videos and the videos that we put out to our third party sort of platforms like mixer and classpass etc. are all filmed with zero music and a lot of music is added in post and that's nothing to do with licensing that simply if someone makes a mistake we don't have to rewind to the right part of the music we can just film on through edit and post super super easy.

Denise  

Oh nice, well, real great. Well I have noticed something and tell me I haven't taught you know I haven't taught in many years but I I do notice that there is a difference with music that is popular on video it just doesn't sound as good when you're because it feels like the well first of all the instructor is talking a lot more because they're on video right. And it compete sometimes their their voice competes with the lyrics and and sometimes it sounds like a train wreck, you know, yeah, it depends. But so like that's what I've heard a lot from instructors also is that you know what, I don't care if I don't use a popular song because those lyrics are just going to conflict with what I'm trying to say. And on video. It's different you know, when you're in a live in person class. You know, you can shut up sometimes as an instructor Well, I'm just let the music take you. But you can't do that with virtual.

Will:  

Exactly. And I think that like, which highlights a massive point, which is that some of the pre choreographed formats, like the Les Mills programs, for example, where the music is so important and super important, and like having taught these for many, many years, you know, sometimes you would want to be silent, while the core the crescendo of the chorus comes up. So unfortunately, you can't you can't teach that. And for all the reasons we've just talked about that song is not available to use, so So yeah, yeah, like the ability to be quiet and let the music speak for you just doesn't exist in virtual because you can't use that song. So you got to, you know, amend your teaching process.

Denise  

It's got to be hard for cycle teachers in cycling, that's got to be the toughest, because it's so dependent on the rhythm of the music and so forth. But yeah, I don't know, I guess our instructors teaching indoor cycling virtually.

Will:  

It's actually really interesting question. So we have, it's not an instructor format yet, but this has R1DE, which is a it's part of our on demand, and we put it out to some of our gym partners. And we use the unfamiliar royalty free music, and it just it we just have to search a little bit more for the good tracks. And, and it's not like it's it's not quite the same, but some of the music is really good. And if you choreograph well to it, it's still got the ups, the downs, the drops, and you can still you can make it work. What I did notice on the in the first lockdown, I think has been cracked down on a little bit now is some of the really, really, really big cycle studios in the States and here in the UK, we're going out on Instagram with original music, just playing in the background. And I was very, very surprised that more of them didn't run into massive issues with that, because they were just playing the Spotify playlists straight out on Instagram Live.

Denise  

Well, you know, Facebook owns Instagram, and they announced probably about April, May that they were going to cut you off midstream. They just mute you right off. Yeah. So Facebook and Instagram are, you know, definitely 100% do not use popular music. It's gonna either be muted, blacked, taken down.

Will:  

Just because you got away with it one time doesn't mean. I think a lot of people were like, Oh, I suddenly got muted on Facebook. And it's like, the what happened is that you were skating under the radar and now you got caught.

Denise  

Exactly. Exactly. Now, YouTube's a little different. Um, some they do have relationships with some artists and publishers. What I've seen though, is they won't take you down, they'll keep you up, but they won't want it. They won't allow you to monetize it. Right. Yeah. So that's what I've seen what YouTube.

Will:  

Cool. So that kind of gives an overview of the situation when it comes to instructors and music. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you think is on the topic of music for fitness instructors that we haven't touched on that you think is worth talking about? As an industry veteran that's been doing it for...

Denise  

32 years, yeah. Now I feel old! I will, I will touch on one other thing. And that's live streaming or, okay, Ace does a great job of explaining. They call two different classes, either one type of classes when you're teaching and there's nobody there.

Will:  

Yeah, it's a two-way live-stream versus a one-way live-stream. They have a particular way of describing it that I have seen.

Denise  

Yeah, it's a great article. So um, when you're teaching two way, live streaming on a, on a meeting platform, not Facebook, not Instagram, not YouTube. That is the one area that's a little still unclear. For licensing. Mm hmm. I have been told from an attorney that all you need is a public performance license to ASCAP BMI and getting a media license. And you're okay to use anything.

Will:  

Really, so like, even original music?

Denise  

Mm hmm. Yep. That's what I would have--

Will:  

with, with the proviso that you can't record it and use it later or anything like that, as long as it's broadcast only?

Denise  

Correct. As long as you don't press record. Yeah. Um, however, there are some schools of thought that says that you also need the synchronization license. So, um, it's become a gray area, I think that's going to change. So I say, use anything you want until somebody says you can't.

Will:  

Yeah, I

Denise  

for right now.

Will:  

But if you're using originals then you're running a risk that

Denise  

It's a risk.

Will:  

the less rights, there are associated with your music, the less risks there are that you won't be able to use it.

Denise  

like most, most royalty-free is going to be 100%. safe. That's your safest way to go. So yeah, but that's it. I mean, that's the only thing I wanted to point out, because

Will:  

I'm super frustrated about how the rules differ from, because they differ from country to country, country to country are more complicated in some place, like there's more agencies in the UK that collect different pieces of the pie, and all that sort of stuff. But at the end of the day, I think that the point to write about is that copyright is this legal, legal thing that exists, and it exists to protect the creators of work so that they so that other people can't freeride off the fruits of their labor, essentially. And then you've got all of these bodies, who there's no one law that says this is fine. And that is not fine. This is all like a set of very complicated negotiations between artists, writers, then as you said, the accountants, the agents, the record companies, then occasionally gets litigated. And the lawyers get involved. Sometimes the government suggests there's something but you've got this massive mess of like network and infrastructure that is constantly changing. And so when something fundamentally different happens, like the whole of fitness and the whole of the fitness industry goes online, you should expect that the rules may not be that clear, because there's several factors is that we that the whole industry is making it up a little bit as we go. And when something new happens, like to a live stream versus one way live stream, on demand, the various people at the various points of the chain all need to make a decision about how they're going to act with it. And then that's all going to flow down to instructors. So instructors, yeah, if you can take one thing away from this, it's that the the royalty free stuff that you get is license free is the one thing that you can count on to be able to utilize in any way, shape or form.

Denise  

Absolutely, absolutely. Now, that was well said, Will, I, you know, I can't even wrap it up any better.

Will:  

It's because because I was an intellectual property lawyer for not that long, I worked, I was a commercial lawyer, but I spent, you know, two or three years working in intellectual property, I did come to realize that if you go to the effort of, and this is also now that I have my own company, I create workouts I create an app, I understand that, like there's so much work goes into it. And I think that we sometimes have this, this strange opinion that because you can download something for free like you no longer like Napster and daunting, that sort of stuff. Just because the facilities to get that content for free exist, you get you sometimes have the assumption that you should be able to get it for free. But if everybody did that, then artists would never get paid, and artists would never have the ability to create the great stuff you really want to do. So if we're treating people fairly at each point in the value chain, then everybody's happy.

Denise  

That is true. I will say that, you know, the digital industry, digital music industry is still fairly new. And they are changing, they are making some changes to streamline things and make things a lot easier. There's the music Modernization Act that was passed and I belive, believe it's global. I'm not sure. I know in the US, but you know, they are trying to put things in place to make things easier. Not as much for the fitness industry and I have been working behind the scenes at trying to make life easy for fitness instructors with music, and to be taken seriously, as an industry, you know, because we really haven't been by the music industry. until maybe recently. You know, peloton, and Zumba and some of the bigger names. Yeah.

Will:  

Well, Denise, thank you so much for jumping on the podcasts and helping to explain to instructors, all of the different things that go into creating music for fitness classes. Best of luck with the remainder of 2020. And I'm sure we'll speak again.

Denise  

Thank you so so much. It was really great being here. Well, thank you for having me. And if you have any questions or anything, you know where to find me through Will.

Will:  

And we'll links to all the stuff you do at Muscle Mixes.

Denise  

Okay. Sounds great. Bye, everybody. Thank you.

Will:  

Sorry, that was my chat with Denise. We covered a lot and I really hope it helped you understand the complexity of music a little bit. The good news is that there are still loads of options even when teaching online and they are only getting better. If music is key to a format. There are some really great royalty free options out there that are actually really affordable and then I would highly recommend checking out. I'm also going to link to Denise's company Muscle Mixes in the shownotes. If you're teaching a style of class that isn't to the beat like HIIT, for example, then a great option when teaching online is to teach without music and share a playlist in advance for your class to play at home, we call this BYOP or bring your own playlist. It feels a little bit strange at first, I will admit, but this is actually how I teach all my online classes and it makes life a lot easier. Music is a challenge, but one that you can overcome with a little bit of knowledge and research into what is the right option for you. If you have any questions on music that weren't covered in today's podcast with Denise, please do reach out to me on social and I'd be happy to follow up. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.