Kal  

Instructors are rarely charging over $10 right now. So I think there's definitely a bit of a fear to charge more, which is fair enough, there's a lot this change. But I think what we'll see over the next couple of months is the professional is now realizing their value and their worth.

Will:  

Hey, I'm Will Brereton, founder of SH1FT Fitness. And this is Group Fitness Real Talk, a show about how to survive and even thrive as an instructor in 2020 and beyond. We've all been thrown into teaching virtually this year, and for I would say, 99% of instructors. This has been a massive learning curve. Trying to figure out the audio, the staging the platform, the booking system, the payment provider has been a lot to learn in a very short amount of time. I've had a lot of instructors asking for advice on how to simplify virtual. So I wanted to have a chat today with Kal from Onpodio on the podcast. Onpodio provides a full service product for instructors that facilitates the running of live and virtual classes. As you'll hear from Cal when COVID started, he was doing something that was slightly different and podio has come about based on the challenges that instructors bring. As a fellow person that started a startup, I really enjoyed talking to him about the foundation of the company. And I really recommend you checking out Onpodio. If you're looking for a solution to simplify the process of going online as an instructor, in the first 15 minutes of our chat, we talked about the Onpodio platform. So if you're looking for a bit of digital solution, then have a listen. If you're already pretty happy with your digital delivery, then you can skip ahead to about the 15 minute mark, which is when we talk about the really juicy stuff. This is where Kal and I discuss some of the trends that have emerged in digital in 2020. And Kal also talks about how to set your class pricing, which I know is a very hot topic, and also how to manage your membership subscription packages. There are some great nuggets of advice that had data live here which I'm sure will be helpful to you no matter what stage you're in, in your digital journey. I hope you enjoy my chat with Kal.

Will:  

 Okay, Kal Jamshidi, welcome to the show. How are you?

Kal  

Doing well, doing well. How are you?

Will:  

I'm good, thank you. And so you're dialing in from Melbourne, right?

Kal  

Yeah, living the lockdown life in Melbourne, Australia.

Will:  

Right. And because Melbourne right now has, as far as I know, from my friends, one of the strictest lockdowns in the world, right?

Kal  

I think so, we can't leave beyond five kilometers of your house and no restaurants open, no bars open, no cafes open. So not much going on in Melbourne.

Will:  

And how long has it been going on for?

Kal  

Good question? I want to say maybe like, June July, no idea at this point. It's just a blur.

Will:  

Wow. So months and months on end of that.

Kal  

Yeah. But it's fully 10 days away from a, at least a relaxation of those rules. So not sure what that exactly means.

Will:  

Right. And so if you're a fitness instructor, what are the rules around what you can do as a fitness instructor in Melbourne at the moment?

Kal  

So gym studios all closed. So it's all virtual, no outdoor.

Will:  

You can even do one on one outdoor?

Kal  

Nothing group, it has to be, you can only be outside with a family member. And you're allowed one hour of exercise personally outside.

Will:  

So for example, you couldn't even do a socially distance walk with a friend, 

Kal  

No.

Will:  

Wow.

Kal  

I went to go for a walk with my with my mother the other day. And she said, can't do it. I was like, alright, fair enough.

Will:  

Wow. So the high level of compliance as well, it sounds?

Kal  

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Everyone's got the masks on, and they're almost a status quo.

Will:  

Okay, so that kind of leads us quite nicely into some of the stuff that you've been doing recently. Why don't you give us a bit of a background on what you've been doing recently, sort of where you've come from, and then we can sort of move into Onpodio?

Kal  

Yeah, sure. So my quick background, you've probably heard the accent, Australian obviously I'm in Melbourne. But I've been in San Francisco for the last six years up until March. So my professional journey was in finance in investment banking, moved from Sydney to San Francisco with with a friend of ours that joined an early stage technology company while I was there, and then about 18 months ago, took the leap of faith to start building Onpodio.

Will:  

Cool. And for the people that are listening, can you kind of describe Onpodio. Give me your elevator pitch.

Kal  

The elevator pitch, right, it sounds so it's really a platform specifically designed for the fitpro to help them build their own business. So everything around class bookings, automating online payments, giving them a platform to build their website where they can also offer memberships, class packs, their on-demand content. That's sort of what we do. So in many ways you can think of it as either Squarespace or Wix or Shopify, it's specifically designed for fitness professionals to help them...

Will:  

Right. I was listening to you on another podcast actually where you said you love giving technology analogies. And I was like, yeah, but they work so well for explaining right?

Kal  

Exactly, exactly what you haven't heard of Onpodio, then it's helpful.

Will:  

Yeah, for sure. Okay, so I'm, I'm probably I was a platform for fitness professionals. That is sort of perfect for the times we find ourselves in. How did you come to found that company?

Kal  

Yeah. So it was really as a consumer. So I am a bit of a fan of spin classes. I typically went every Saturday morning to my favorite instructor. And this is a reflection on San Francisco life.

Will:  

This is San Francisco, what studio wasn't out of interest?

Kal  

Equinox. In San Francisco, yeah. So, have my favorite instructor would go to every week, we can wake up. And one day she came to class and sort of said, I am sort of moving to New York. And I had a pretty visceral reaction to it in that moment, and I was sitting there, clipping into the bike. And it sort of made me just realize how valuable she was and important she was to my experience as a consumer. I went to that class, not for the studio and not for the scented towels at equinox, not for anything else other than her. There's something about her music, her personality, she was technical, but not too technical. That sort of suited me and sort of really got me thinking about, well, she had built on magic brand and an amazing reputation in San Francisco. But she didn't really get to leverage that joke. And even if she wanted to do something herself in San Francisco, it was like really challenging because there were no tools and infrastructure built for her to help her really build her business. She had to rely on studios and gems to give her that infrastructure.

Will:  

I'm sure that for most people listening, they will hugely appreciate the fact that this founding story was driven by the fact that you recognize that an instructor was the most important part of your class experience. It's worth saying that like I've obviously worked for Les Mills, and Beachbody and then classpass have kind of been in the boutique space. And always the most important factor in anyone's decision making process is the instructor. It's always the number one, like things like time slot and location really play into where people choose to go. But once they're there, instructors just such an important part of it, which is obviously important for people listening to this because this is a podcast designed to assist instructors. But it's nice to hear that from someone on the other side of the class, because as an instructor, you can often feel quiet. It's sometimes you have to put a lot in and you don't get a lot back. So this is nice to hear. Yeah.

Kal  

Totally well, and like we actually, after that sort of light bulb moment, random little survey of about 200 consumers that said, "Was I the only one that felt like this?"

Will:  

So when you say lightbulb moment where describe describe what that realization was,

Kal  

it was like, it was that sort of moment on the on the bike when the instructor came to class and told her told everyone that she was moving, it was that realization of her value, the value she created for me as a consumer. And that my primary where my priorities lie and where my loyalty lay, was really with her. Had she have said, I'm gonna be down for down the road to a nearby studio,  I would have contemplated following her there. And sort of around that question, specifically 85% of consumers said the same thing. They said that if my instructor was to move to a nearby studio, and this is back in the obviously pre-COVID days, they would have followed them there as well. So I think it just goes to show the power, the loyalty of the instructor.

Will:  

Right, so you realize that you were going to lose your favorite instructor. And then you're working in the sort of startup industry in on the west coast of the US. So how did you marry those two things together?

Kal  

Yeah, look, I can't say I I ever thought I was destined to go down the founder technologies startup path. But I think being in...

Will:  

because now that you've done it, you know how hard it is?

Kal  

Could be part of it. Yeah. No. It's, uh, it was never sort of, like, it was never really my upbringing. But I think having spent six years in San Francisco being in a culture of anything is possible. And, you know, how do you how do you take technology and help them unlock the value and the opportunities? I sort of eventually got into it. And so from that sort of moment that I had, that took a lightbulb moment to actually starting it was six months, it was it wasn't like I quit my job the next day and started Onpodio. It was a period of like research, discovery, but also convincing myself that the opportunity was there and it was the right thing to sort of tackle.

Will:  

And so tell me a little bit more about Onpodio did it did you start with a fully germinated idea of exactly what it will be, or is it been through some iterations to what it is today?

Kal  

Yeah, it's definitely been an evolution. So I guess after that in, we sort of took the leap of faith back in May 2019. And at that point, the idea was really, let's build LinkedIn for fitness, let's build a platform where fitness professionals can create their online presence that isn't Instagram or Facebook. That's really, I hadn't stopped LinkedIn, because LinkedIn is really valuable for fitness professionals generally. So giving them that online presence and creating that sort of marketplace where the consumer can find their local instructors find the one that best suits them their personality, and also say that scheduling tips like that, we launched that back in November last year, so November 2019, and candidly attraction was okay, wasn't great. And really, the feedback that we got from a lot of instructors well was, this is good, this is helpful. This is valuable, and maybe cool, but it doesn't actually help you. So how does this actually help me make more money? 

Will:  

Right, because I can imagine I didn't see this earlier iteration. But when you tell me about it, I can imagine that it's all great, but it doesn't do something that other things don't do already.

Kal  

Exactly. And also, it would be incredibly valuable if there was thousands, 10s of thousands, hundreds of thousands of consumers on there. And that point went to, well, there's no hard dollar return. But there's definitely some sort of benefit of being on this platform. But if being a startup, just launching it, it's the chicken and egg problem of instructors aren't gonna be there unless the users of their users are going to be there. So yeah, we definitely went back to the drawing board and relaunched sort of the kind of current iteration you see, back in May this year. And, and even then, we had a bit of a mini pivot and in the interim...

Will:  

because obviously, some some things happened in March potentially changed change the the focus of things a little bit. So how did you react to so when the COVID News happened in lockdown started to happen? You had a different product? How did you react to that?

Kal  

Yeah, so between November and March, we were building the software platform to help business professionals run that business, where the use case in mind was people running boot camps in the park, running, yoga retreats. 

Will:  

So software that facilitates live classes, essentially.

Kal  

 In person classes. And COVID happened. I packed my bags came to Australia for a little bit, which is now turned to six months. Yeah. And honestly, I think and I think everyone went through this for the first week or two, from mid March to end of March. It was a little disorientating, but from my perspective, I can't imagine what it was like for the fitness professionals. To see when was this going to end? What was this going to mean? And quickly, it was actually quite amazing to say like, how creative fitness professionals were, I think, zoom must be, you know, counting their blessings for how quickly fitness professionals adopted the platform to run their classes. 

Will:  

I've actually seen some graphs about Zoom's growth, and they are they're pretty promising. So certainly one of the winners from from 2022

Kal  

I'd love to see like the bandwidth consumed.

Will:  

And I've often thought that as well. Like, it must be crazy, right? Just the the number of sort of gigabytes going through your terabytes, or what's the one that bigger than terabytes going through zoom at any one time.

Kal  

But but I imagine it must be at this point in time, like fitness must dominate that. And like maybe education is number one. But anyway, but yeah, I guess you know, as you sort of saw, everyone sort of jump online and sort of adapted to the situation as well. We sort of like picked up the picked up the tools again, and instead of launching what we were about to launch, but we're literally within a day or two launching a new platform, we sort of put pause on that, and went back to the drawing board to adapt that we had created for the first physical in person world and make it super seamless for the virtual world.

Will:  

Right. And so tell me a little bit about what Onpodio does. So obviously, we'll link out to onpodio. So anyone listening to this can kind of take a bit of a tour on your website, but just if you can quickly summarize what the solution is for instructors.

Kal  

Yeah, so imagine like, I think one of the things that we typically replace is manual process. So today, oftentimes what some fitness professionals do in terms of running their virtual zoom classes, is they'll manage bookings over DMs on Instagram or on Facebook, or manage payments separate to that with in the US is venmo and then half an hour, an hour of class they'll email a link with zoom like it's a lot of processing and reconciling and a hand to hand combat with your clients. We've sort of streamline all of that. So you can create your own website and like literally five minutes, and you can add your class schedule to that. And you can basically put that on your Instagram or your Facebook, wherever you, your clients know to look for you direct them there to the video platform where they can just book and pay at their leisure. And you don't have to manually reconcile or keep track of any of that.

Will:  

Right, and you integrate with zoom, right? So you can stick a zoom link into the schedule that you have on the onpodio website.

Kal  

Yeah, exactly. So we've integrated with zoom. So within the Onpodio platform, you can create a class and create a zoom link without ever leaving. So just literally text one click, but you can use other platforms as well. So if you use YouTube Live or Facebook rooms, yeah, you can do that.

Will:  

 So I'm gonna, I'm gonna summarize this in my head, tell me if I get it wrong. But essentially, if I'm an instructor and I have I use Facebook, or Instagram as kind of my branding tool, I would have a link to my onpodio landing page, which would take me to that, and then I could have some information about me where that I've set up through a templatized process. So a little bit like sending a Facebook account or a LinkedIn account, you know, you add photos, you add information. And then I would have my class schedule. And the booking and payment for the class would all be taken through the audio platform. Then the in the class participant will be sent a link that they then click into, or they'll be able to click into a link to take me to my class, which will be done on the thing I'm using right now already. So whether it be Facebook or Zoom.

Kal  

Exactly, yeah. And then beyond that, I mean, that's the, that's the core problem we solve but beyond that really, like expected, expanded the feature set. So to really unlock new revenue streams for fitpros, so memberships to generate recurring revenue. So the same thing that studios and gyms do, you could offer as well.

Will:  

I think that's really interesting. So tell us about the different types of payment that instructors can take.

Kal  

Yes, it's really like buckets into three. So it's like the drop in rate. That's what everyone's been doing. But you can offer your own memberships as well. So you can offer weekly or monthly memberships, that can give access to your live classes or to your on demand content. Yep. And you can also offer your own class packages. So if I pack or 10 pack, well, you're giving a slight discount for sort of upfront commitment.

Will:  

And payments are processed through....

Kal  

So we use stripe. So stripe is either number one or number two in terms of processing. And basically, that just comes straight into your stripe account. By default, every day or every other day, it flushes out into your bank account.

Will:  

and before we get into some of the trends that you've observed around virtual teaching, which I know our listeners will be really keen on, what is the commercial model? Because I know that you've chosen to go with a slightly different approach to some other platforms in terms of how you charge Can you kind of explain why you chose to go with it?

Kal  

Yeah, so we, for the last six to eight weeks, we've spent a lot of time thinking about our pricing model. And day one, our intent was let's you know, this is basically a software service, we'll probably charge a subscription of the fitness professional to actually benefit from this business management solution, basically. And we spent a bunch of time speaking to a number of instructors, we spent a lot of time speaking to consumers as well. And what we sort of found was instructors are probably under under charging for what they're delivering today. Yeah,

Will:  

I think I think I think you'll find that that's a common complaint around most instructor circles is the low pay. But yeah, I guess like it's also fit into especially now since everybody went online, there was just so much free content. But I think a lot of people are uneasy about recharging for things that they could get for free, which is a topic of a whole nother podcast that I've talked at length about how to how to kind of justify your value. So we don't need to get into that. But let's get back to onpodio. So you're you were talking about instructors and under charging.

Kal  

Yeah, so I think what we basically learned was like this threshold, can and want to and should charge more for their classes, but maybe a little bit afraid to change. And then on the consumer side, consumers are probably willing to pay a little bit more and are generally quite used to paying like a booking or a service fee when using platforms like this. So basically, what we've done is we've made the platform the platform completely free for the fitness professional, so it doesn't cost them anything monthly to use the platform. Instead, we charge a small booking or service fee on paid transactions that the client pays so That's our way of sort of being a little bit of a bad guy on behalf of the fitness professional, yeah, that they can maximize their income.

Will:  

So to use a tech analogy that I know you hate, I'm going to do it anyway. It's a little bit like when you go to say, booking.com, or Skyscanner and you see a surcharge or a booking fee on the end of it, so you know that you're paying for the platform, rather than paying for the provider. 

Kal  

Exactly. So the instructor will set their price, call it $10. And when the client goes to book, I'll say this class cost $10 plus a service fee of 79 cents. That's all it is. Right to page $10.79. 

Will:  

Okay, cool. So we will link out to that site and let everyone go and look through it. But what I was really excited to talk to you about, because obviously, you're working in a space that I know a lot of structures instructors have stepped into recently, which is teaching virtually, so people that listen to this, some of them are back in the gym, some of them are back in the gym, and teaching virtually, and some of them are still in a position where they're teaching purely virtually like everybody in Melbourne. So what I really like to understand from you is, what are some of the trends that you've observed in the time that you've been kind of building on podio, sort of since COVID? Because I know, that obviously, goes without saying the virtual has taken off, but you guys are sitting on a whole lot of knowledge and data that I really like to share with some of our listeners. So can you give me a taste of some of the trends that you've seen happening?

Kal  

Yeah, sure. Um, look, I think I mean, I mean, generally, we probably already covered this a little bit is this overnight emergence of the fitness entrepreneur, then one of the things has been great to see just generally that the industry is a lot of fitness professionals are now very much focusing on not just like their career, but their business. I think when people are fitness professionals enter the industry, they enter for the passion of the craft. But the reality is everyone who enters the industry, and this is true for any services industry, you're really oftentimes a business right from day one. You're an entrepreneur from day one. And I think this lockdown has sort of brought that put a bright light on that.

Will:  

Yeah, and I think that a lot of, me included, actually, my entry into fitness was teaching for a gym. And so my job was to rock up and the people will be there. Obviously, I had to build my class numbers by being consistent and giving everything but you know, the gym, handled the sales, the gym handled the money, I just got paid a fee, and I turned that did something I loved and then lifted. And that was the reality of teaching for me for you know, a decade. Whereas, and then I slowly moved into so that was when I was a Les Mills instructor. So obviously there are licensed format teach through clubs. So obviously, I was teaching in a club. And then the way I taught started to change. And gradually, I kind of started to understand the idea of actually owning a business and a lot of our instructors, our community instructors have their own businesses. And so we really facilitate that through shift. But I think that a lot of instructors who were primarily class based, were thrown in the deep end in March because their gyms closed and their access to classes and revenues just disappeared overnight.

Kal  

Yeah, totally. But, but look, I think, yeah, I think that as a result of that people are now very much focused on building a direct relationship with their clients, instead of relying on it coming through the studio or through the gym. I think the reality is from day one, and teaching my classes, they had the strongest relationship of the client, to my personal trainer, and instructor. And now they're really like building that direct relationship, collecting their emails, clicking their name, clicking their phone numbers directly, monetizing them, obviously, directly as well. And I think all of this is broadly encompassed in this, like realization of the value that the flipper is creating. And that possibly break out of it, there was a disproportionate share that was being, a disproportion amount that's being shared with the fitness professional. I think, from the virtual world, I think the general trend we're saying, because I'm sure all professionals in the audience listening, saying is that evolution from like, Instagram Live to where we're at today. 

Will:  

So the realization, you can continue to give everything away for free. That the general consensus is that you know, everything happened, people went online for a number of reasons that was to stay connected to their class members to continue doing what they were doing. And it was and the fitness industry actually provided a massive service, right, like the number of people that just started jumping into fitness, and we were locked down. But at the end of the day, if you you can't give everything away for free forever. And so in the last few months, people have come to the realization that they need to be smarter about how they do it. And if you haven't listened to the podcast, where we go through the eight things that every instruction doing 2020 I'm going to link to that so you have to read through that. But I'm not going to talk more about that stuff here because I want to hear from Kal. So, what are the biggest challenges that you find that instructors face with running their own business and going digital?

Kal  

Yeah, I think I think of it like three things here. One would be probably over engineering things. And I think, you know, the two examples I have on that. One thing that, and I think this has come and gone, but like maybe a month or two ago, a lot of people were worried about zoom links and the passwords and making sure they try and change the password every other day,

Will:  

because there was that whole, like, zoom bombing.

Kal  

And, look, I think that was like a concern that wasn't really real. But a lot of people spend a lot of time on it, they probably made it a little bit more inconvenient for your customers and things like that. You know, the reality of it was, it would be like someone walking into a boot camp in the past that hasn't booked or paid and trying to train alongside your paying clients, it would be just as awkward. The other one that we're now seeing is like the on demand piece of  like, making sure that you know, if you sell an on demand class, that they only have access to for 24 hours, 48 hours, and then and that's not really a risk that we're seeing or something that we think especially concerned about.

Will:  

So tell me a bit more about that. So you have the ability to do obviously live streaming through third party platforms on onpodio. And then you host on demand libraries as well, right. So if someone can't make the live stream, then the instructor can load it up to their page, and they can view it. What's your view on live stream versus on demand? I know we're straying away from what we're talking about. But I think it's a it's a important thing for instructors who are trying to figure out the mix.

Kal  

Yeah, I think this has been like over the last month or so maybe six weeks, we've seen this to become increasingly important. I think this is like a part of this evolution of like the footprint now really building a scalable business. And now starting to tailor to the needs of the client and giving them that convenience. Obviously, not everyone can attend the livestream. So we started to say this to be a really massive growth driver for our fitness professionals on our on our platform. Right now very roughly about for every for every two live streams or to attendees to a live stream, fitness professional is selling about one on demand. So say you have 10 people attending a live class, okay, they're probably selling an incremental four to five on demand videos as well. Now, that's also it's a little bit tricky to like run the math around that because numbers have to decrease. It's not like they're truly increments. A little bit more scheduling. The other thing I was saying is, I think the concern that I was mentioning, like people don't really hoard those on demand videos, people aren't buying one on demand video from the from their favorite instructor and just watching it every day. And running that same class. 

Will:  

Yeah, for sure. So that I mean, that's something that we've that I've talked about, and that we've definitely seen is that on demand is great to have for the convenience of the user. But you don't have to overcomplicate that class, because the reality is the on demand class will be watched once, maybe twice if they liked it, but probably not more than twice. And so trying to sort of make it super pretty and practicing and doing all that sort of stuff is just an over complication of something that could just be as as unrehearsed as a live stream in reality.

Kal  

Totally. I mean, when you look at like the biggest company in displays, peloton, they still run 14 live classes every day. People don't want to watch the same thing. Or it's like watching the same movie or TV show over and over again. It's maybe good the second time and then it's just yeah.

Will:  

This is this is funny, I actually use this analogy. And I was talking to someone the other day, it's like a really good movie, right? Like, you have a really good movie: high production value, amazing actors, amazing special effects. But you might watch it once or twice, and then you might come back to it for nostalgia basis. But you're not going to be watching that regularly. When I think about what fitness is today, it's a little bit more like a soap opera or cereal. Like you're coming in, you know, it's low quality. 30 minutes. It's bold, and the beautiful neighbors are home and away from an Australian perspective. But you're coming back for a little bit of consistency. You know it you know, it's like the quality is not that great, but you're getting fresh stuff every day, new storyline, new new when new baby new car crash.

Kal  

And you actually get to be part of it.

Will:  

Okay, so over-complication was the first one. What are the other issues that you think that instructors are facing?

Kal  

I think too, is the not charging enough? I think right. We're probably already touched. But yeah, I think just to reiterate, the point is, at least in the US in San Francisco, you know, if you want to go to soulcycle, Barry's class over $35 a pop, and instructors are really charging over $10 right now. So I think it's definitely I think there's a bit of a fear to charge more which is, which is fair enough. There's a lot of change. But I think what you see over the next couple of months is yeah, professionals now realizing their value and their worth.

Will:  

Yeah. So that when when instructors asked me about this, my response is always that you need to lean into the value that you can provide that other people can't, which is personalization, and community. So it's not just the classes, everything you do for your people that are coming outside of the class, it's keeping them accountable. It's having a Facebook group or some other digital place for them to meet. It's personalizing the servers, asking them what kind of workout they want giving it to them, asking them about the playlist they want giving it to them. But a lot of instructors really don't know what price to charge. So do you have any data on what is a sweet spot for a good instructor at the moment?

Kal  

Yeah, so we we actually see quite a range. So this is using US dollars. We see everything from about $7 to up to actually $30 classes, really?

Will:  

And so what are the $30 classes on your platform? What is the genre? Are they super famous instructors or...?

Kal  

they they're not actually they've just carved out a very specific niche, and loyal customer base. So the one that I'm particularly thinking of it's, it's, I think it's called a level three kettlebell class. So, and it's 90 minutes, so it's a little bit heavier than typical class. But even still, you know, it's, it's a high value proposition class, it's quite unique and quite special that people can't get anywhere else, basically. And as you said, like they've really lent into that position. And so I think they can afford to do that. The sweet spot, you know, I think if we took an average would be at about a $10 a class, right. But I think, I think we'll see that number increase over the next couple of months.

Will:  

That's really interesting. I think that a lot of instructors are very scared to test this out. But I think it comes to proving your value and your as my friend says, your poverty serves no one. And so you really need to make sure that you are, you're building on the ability to provide value and therefore charge what you're worth. So you say something about niching, which is another thing that I think is really interesting from instructors. So I know that we'd had a quick conversation before this, and you talked about carving into your own niche. Can you maybe explain a little bit more what you mean by that?

Kal  

Yeah, I think like one of the things that we've found instructors on our platform to be to serve them well, and has allowed them to be more successful, is really carving a niche. And really, to begin with, like, focusing on getting those first 10 customers are really loyal fans of yours. They might be friends, they might be family, and that's okay. But not trying to be everything to everyone to begin with, I think is important. And sometimes, the fact that the world is now virtual people think well, I should now try and appeal to a virtual global.

Will:  

This is where I was going with that. I think like, I know, like, I've fallen into that trap  myself. And I know that a lot of instructors have whereas you now you can access everybody, right? So theoretically, everyone in the world is now a potential customer. But if you're serving, if your aim is to serve everyone, then the reality is you serve no one right. And and and i think that that is something that a lot of instructors are beginning to realize is that they've kind of need to find what their unique spaces and niche it down to a point where they can identify who is the ideal customer that I'm trying to bring into my class, try and get 10 of them, and then 10 of them will sort of grow into 20. And then you know, there'll be 20 people that might not be quite as similar, and then you can build on it from there. But trying to be everything for everyone is the biggest mistake. I mean, it applies to all companies. Right. But I think that instructors being thrown into the deep end of building a brand on their own, need to hear that. I was I was gonna say, like the most successful instructors on your platform, would you describe them as having a strong niche?

Kal  

Absolutely. Yeah. So we see niches, is based around like faith, faith based classes. Yeah, around demographics, like catering to 40 plus year olds or more 60 plus year old, say, niches around specific, like fitness programs, obviously. So yeah, that's where we see the most success or where we see the most successes where they've carved out a niche. That's what they eventually become known for. And why that word now starts to spread around.

That, I mean that that's a takeaway that I think is really important and potentially a podcast in and of itself, which is kind of defining what your niche is, because I know a lot of people struggle with that. Do the instructors who who you consider to know their niche did they know it coming in or have they like, refined it and learned it along the way? Obviously, it's a relatively short timeframe. But I'm just curious like, you've obviously got instructors who are on the platform, I imagine that they've built up their following on the platform. Did they have a strong understanding going in? Or have they cut it around the edges and refined it?

Kal  

I think a bit of a mix, I think there were those who came in with their niche and have done well. And then I think there were those who didn't have a niche or didn't focus on a niche and eventually led to focus on a niche. So, not really an answer to your question. But...

Will:  

yeah, well, it's early days, it's early days. I do actually think this is something that I'd love to delve deeper into on another podcast, because I think one of the other things that we haven't really talked about is that, you know, there are these massive on demand platforms that are relatively cheap, Apple just came out with Apple Music, I sorry, Apple fitness plus, and their price point is $10. So what you were saying was kind of an average class point, right. And so there's obviously high barriers to entry, we'll probably do a whole lot of talks on digital and Apple for this class and the impact that will have. But those platforms are designed to be for everyone, because the whole reason that they're cheap, and that they're on these global platforms is that they're designed to have the widest possible berth, and have the widest appeal. So as an instructor, in order to compete with them, you really have to understand how to personalize how to create community and how to find your niche and your tribe of people that just want you because all those big companies that you can you can never compete with on price and reach are the ones that are going out to everyone.

Kal  

Yeah, absolutely. I think there was something I want to share with you a little bit earlier, around a survey done around about peloton.

Will:  

Yes, yes.

Kal  

Yeah, so I'm sure that it surveyed 5000 people or something like that, and showed that there was that at least 4% intended to be users.

Will:  

So it was a survey done of I think I've got I think you sent it to me. So adults 18 plus surveyed in the US, right, so we're taking the hundred percent is sort of adults that are in the range of potential customers.

Kal  

Exactly. Yeah. And so of those, they found that 2% were users of the peloton platform, 4% intended to be users. But two thirds were aware of the brand and we're not interested in becoming peloton, consumers. And I think that just goes to show one, it goes to show how massive digital fitness market is. As big as Peleton is, it accounts for 2% or probably even less than the market. And that there's a huge population of the fitness consumer market that's not interested in these big platforms they want right? They want that customization. They want to jump on the zoom class style and you know, have a chat with their instructor or at the end of the class or fist bump them at the end of the boot camp in the park. That's something that peloton, Apple fitness plus can't deliver.

Will:  

Yeah, and that's something that I think is really interesting to group fitness instructors who are not boutique instructors, they're coming from gyms or the community. Because our big players like peloton and looking at Apple Music Apple fit I keep saying Apple Music Apple fitness, which does actually look really diverse. I'm really impressed with the trainers they've gone out with it's really interesting to see a whole variety of people some older, there was one guy with an amputee instructor, which I thought was really, I can't wait to do his class. But the people that will be listening to this podcast are often a little bit older and wouldn't necessarily see themselves represented in some of those really high end fitness products. Whether it be body size, or age or a whole manner of factors. And there are lots of individuals who feel exactly the same way. And so if you're an instructor who manages to find their tribe and find their niche, there is a market that things like peloton are just not tapping into which that data shows. So while I might get a link from that, and we can link to in the show notes so that people can see that for themselves. Yeah. So is there any sort if I was to ask you what are the what are the kind of top two or three things that you would recommend that a fitness instructor does right now, aside from joining onpodio? Which I'm sure is number one, what will be their what will be the tips that you would give them if they could take away anything from this conversation and from your learnings, as a person working on the tech side of platform and delivery rather than as an instructor? And obviously as a passionate taker of classes? What are the biggest you will be focusing on right now?

Kal  

Yeah, I think it's just I think it's worth spending the time and going through the exercise of narrowing in on what what it is you want to focus on what you're passionate about. That's probably the most important factor to it. and to making sure you like as part of that like just from different angles, making sure you're not trying to do too much. So find your niche, don't try and offer 10 different menu options of pricing options. You don't need to have a drop in, a membership, a class pack, a weekly, a monthly...

Will:  

Right, because that just gets confusing, right? The more the more choice you give your customers, the less likely they are to choose any of them.

Kal  

Exactly. And the more likely they are to sleep on it, which means they'll probably forget.

Will:  

Right? And so that's a really good question. And it's like going to the Cheesecake Factory, right? Like, if you have 1000 things on the menu, it's almost impossible to choose. And then you almost always wish you'd chosen something else. Is there a recommended number of options and or recommended number of class types that you would suggest based on your knowledge of what instructors are doing on the platform and who is having success?

Kal  

Yeah, I think it's really limited to price options, if that makes sense. So I do a drop in and a class package. If you do that, then maybe don't do the membership or, you know, do the drop in and the membership don't do the class package. 

Will:  

Right. So don't have five classes, 10 classes, 15 classes, drop in drop in regularly monthly, yearly.

Kal  

Exactly. Yeah, we see like the ones that have the most success of just doing one or two. Yeah.

Will:  

Right. When I advise studios, that's the first thing I said as well, if I go onto their website, and they have, like 15 different membership packages, and like you need to cut that down. Yeah, yeah. decision fatigue is a real thing. And if you give people too many choices, you're absolutely right. They'll go can't decide now think about it later, and then they don't come back.

Kal  

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Will:  

 I think that's a great piece of advice. I like that one. So minimize the number of options that you are providing so that you're maximizing the chance of them actually choosing one.

Kal  

Yep. And then I think the other one is just to just to get started. You know, I've been on a number of these fitness classes, where things have been imperfect. Yeah, audio hasn't worked, the music hasn't worked. There's just technical difficulty. People are joining the class a little bit late, whatever it is. It's all fine. People don't....I think everyone generally over indexes on perfection. And professionals are probably skewed even higher towards over over indexing on perfection. And it's just not going to be perfect, people go to peloton for for that perfection, high production value. We're coming to you for that authentic experience. 

Will:  

I love hearing that. That's all the stuff I talked about. But I completely agree if you want the perfect, exactly that produce perfectly with perfect audio and perfect video, then there are so many on demand providers providing it for so cheap, people are coming to instructors for real gritty in directional classes. And that sometimes includes the audio going or a bit of a slip up or something bad happening or you know, the laptop leg closing. And to be honest, that's all part of the fun as even as a live instructor, my best classes will almost always the one where there was a mishap because it's in the reaction to the mishap and the bringing the class into, like the anxiety with you where the fun comes out. Like when the microphone doesn't work, you had to really start you know, doing your verbal, your nonverbal cueing, and it's the same with live stream. It's just, I think the problem that instructors have is that being on the other side of the camera, you just feel a little bit more of that anxiety, like I know for myself, and I've taught livestream classes. If the tech goes wrong, I just start to sweat and get anxious. I also have been a participant in so many live-stream classes where I just don't sweat it, you don't even notice.

Kal  

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, put yourself in the client's shoes, you've been there before yourself, probably. It's fine people a very forgiving people are very relaxed and comfortable about it. So I think it's like I'd say, to summarize, like spend the time on focusing on the niche or defining your niche. And once you've got that nailed, just go for it.

Will:  

Perfect. I think that is a fantastic place to finish. So thank you very much Kal. It's Friday night, your time. So I know that you're probably going to go off and have a beer in the room. But thank you very much for coming on and sharing that knowledge with us. I'm really looking forward to seeing onpodio continue to grow. So for anyone listening, we'll stick some links, so you can go and check it out. And I'll put Kal's contact details as well or the onpodio contact details so that you can find out more about the solution. Thanks, guys.

Kal  

Bye, bye.

Will:  

Thanks for listening to my chat with Kal. Choosing a streamlined solution digital can really make life a lot easier for those of us that struggle with the complications of digital on polio is a great platform. And there are a number of options out there that we will link to in the show notes so that you can check them out and decide which is the right one for you. The three pieces of advice that stood out most from my chat with kalwa one, choose your niche. Don't try to be everything to everyone to have at most two pricing packages more and people will suffer from decision paralysis and one by Finally, the third one is that instructors generally don't charge enough. So don't be apologetic about charging what you're worth. I've been incredibly vocal over the years about the fact instructors don't earn enough. And this was one of the main reasons that I created shift fitness. It was music to my ears when Kal suggested that there's a trend towards instructors class rates increasing. Let's hope that that continues. Right. Join me next week where I will be talking to my very, very good very, very old friend Bevan James Isles. We're going to be reminiscing about our times working at Liz mills in Christchurch. We're going to be talking about our experiences in the fitness industry for the last 20 years. And Bevin is going to be dropping some amazing nuggets of info around joy community and how to stay in the fitness industry doing what you love and still loving it after 20 years. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.