Sacha  

So the challenge that I want to put in front of everybody in the fitness world is, what if this is the next five years? So rather than saying, I can't wait till we go back in time, what if this or something worse than this is what we've got? How do you prepare for that? And how can we be optimistic about that world?

Will:  

Hey, I'm Will Brereton, founder of SH1FT Fitness. And this is Group Fitness Real Talk, a show about how to survive and even thrive as an instructor in 2020 and beyond. I think we can all agree that this year has not been anything like we expected. 2020 has really challenged us all. In the first ever Group Fitness Real Talk podcast, I spoke to Michelle Park about grief, and working through grief in the context of COVID. It got such a great response that I wanted to revisit the topic of coping with adversity, but from a slightly different angle. Today, I'm interviewing my friend Sacha Coburn. Sacha is a wise giver of wisdom. She's outspoken, she's thoughtful, and she's a person that I often go to when I need great advice. Sasha has a wealth of knowledge. And her advice is something that we talk about a lot in today's podcast. What stood out to me the most was mindset. She talks about two mindset holes that people get stuck in the negativity, space, and the hope for a miracle space, both of which have their own problems. She also talks about how to turn those mindsets into views that are much more productive and healthy, and she gives you actionable tips on how to do so you'll hear that Sasha really challenged me during our call to look hard at my own behaviors this year. And to reframe my views on some of the challenges that I'm facing. This wasn't something that we prepped in advance, but I'm always happy to get taught by Sasha. I encourage you to listen to this episode with an open mind and to really honestly evaluate yourself and how you have approached situations this year. Before we get started with the interview, I'm going to issue my standard warning when I talk to a fellow kiwi, which is that we do swear occasionally. There's not a lot but if you're listening around sensitive ears, you may want to take care. Now, here's Sacha.

Will:  

 Sacha Coburn. Welcome to the show. How are you?

Sacha  

I'm so well, thanks. Great to be here. Will.

Will:  

Okay, now I'll ask that again. So how are you really doing?

Sacha  

So I'm actually really doing well. But I've had to work at doing well over these last few months. I'm a naturally kind of effervescent, optimistic, positive person. And I've certainly found the last few months pretty challenging.

Will:  

Yeah, as I think we all have. So obviously, this is a show for group fitness instructors who are a cohort of the population that you know very well, but you're not a group fitness instructor yourself. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about sort of what you're up to career wise at the moment?

Sacha  

Oh, yeah. So I have a long history in group fitness, by which I mean, I taught group fitness for a short space of time. And then I've been really actively involved in the lives of instructors, but haven't been a massive participant of group fitness over that time, myself. So I run out an organization here in New Zealand, a family business, we own a bunch of coffee shops. So we have 21 shops, we just opened a new one this morning. So that's pretty exciting. And I run a leadership development company. And through that I get to work with organizations all over the world, really just helping develop and grow our leaders. And through that, I've managed to maintain a really lifelong connection with the Les Mills group of companies, run some leadership training for them here in New Zealand, and speak at conferences around the world for Les Mills, other fitness organizations, in fact, any company that will have me really that wants to talk about what it means to have wholehearted high performance, and how we really, whether we have a title or not, we're all leaders.

Will:  

Right? And so how has the events of 2020 affected your career and the things that you were doing? So what was your life looking like it? What did your diary, your calendar look like at the start of the year? And how was that turned out?

Sacha  

So I have to tell you that 2020 was going to be the most amazing year for me. So there's three as I've described, there's three main industries that I'm involved in, first of all, the family coffee shop business, my husband and I run that together and hospitality has been smashed by COVID. So here in New Zealand, we've had our coffee shops have had to close. We've had restrictions on how we can operate. So coffee has been a tough industry to be in during this COVID time. The second industry that I'm heavily involved in is fitness. So, fitness has been affected at this time as well, right?

Will:  

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Sacha  

I've always thought, you know, if it turns out that somebody proves that coffee causes cancer, that's okay, because I'll always have fitness. But fitness is looking a bit dodgy. And so the third kind of string to my bow, as conference keynote speaking around the world. And in New Zealand, the borders are closed, we can leave, but we can't come back. And nobody is having massive of conferences apart from Donald Trump rallies, no one's getting lots of big people together. So the conference industry is also gone. So for me, it's been a real time of personal kind of challenge and reflection. And I've had to really answer some questions about myself and my leadership. I don't know about you, but it's very easy to talk a great leadership game when things are going well. But when it gets tough, that's when we're really forced to evaluate actually the stuff that we believe is it true, and does that help?

Will:  

Yeah, that's so true. So that's like three major strings to your bow that you are really excited about developing all three of them this year that have all broke, they've been destrung. So Sacha, you and I actually had coffee at one of your coffee shops in Christchurch, you're a Christ Church native, right, you're from Christchurch? You lived in Christchurch, what it like like childhood or teens, or did just...

Sacha  

I moved to Christchurch in my 20s. And my kids were born in Christchurch. And so I have a real affinity with Christchurch in my heart.

Will:  

Perfect. And hopefully, I think being a Christchurcher gives you a little bit of resilience. I think, if anyone wants to Google Christchurch, they're more than welcome to, we're not gonna get into that on this podcast. But Sacha and I both have spent time in Christchurch and were both down there new years. And you were also talking about the Harvard Business School program that you are on as well. Was that something you were supposed to continue this year as well?

Sacha  

Yeah, so I was really lucky. And lucky, I use that word loosely, because I work fucking hard. But I was lucky enough to win a prime minister's business scholarship a couple of years ago. And that gave me a grant or scholarship to go to Harvard Business School. So you do three weeks at a time, every year for three years. And when we caught up, I had done that first block of time meeting with 163 amazing people from around the world. And what an absolute life highlight for me to be in an environment where people want to do good on the planet, and are just fucking smart and learning about business. So I was due to go back there. So September, actually, right now I'm due to be in Boston. But as I might have said earlier, I bet that's been deferred until until next year. So I'm trying to implement the lessons that I learned in my businesses, while I wait to go back and learn some more. 

Will:  

So at the start of the call, you're seeing that, yeah, you're feeling pretty good. And you've just kind of outlined four big things that disappeared in 2020, which I know that a lot of people can sympathize with. Everybody had plans for this year is going to be, and all of those plans have been sort of destroyed in one way, shape, or form for some people more than others. So some people are struggling a lot more than others are some hasn't been such an impact on life. But for everybody, it's not what we thought it was going to be. So you talked about sort of getting yourself to a place where you're okay with it. Can you maybe walk us through your process? So if we wind back to when everything started to go to shit? What was what was your mental process? And how did you how did you get from there to where you are today? And then we'll talk a little bit about kind of the feelings you have now and moving forward.

Sacha  

Yeah, okay. I'm gonna ask you a question. Before I do I just want to make it clear that we're doing okay, on the coffee business. So I know that this whole COVID thing is not a victim competition. I've got it so bad. No, I've got it worse. No, I've got it terrible. I am a really competitive person. So if I'm going to have it bad, I want to have it terrible. But in this case, because of the actions that we've been able to take in New Zealand, our coffee shops are open. And we're doing really well. So I've got a lot to be thankful for. And that sense, but when the whole crisis first hit, and, and it really became apparent that disruption that we would all face. For me, it was an exercise in going back to first principles. So you'll have heard me say before that the people that we first and foremost lead is ourselves, and so the more that we can understand ourselves, inside out, the better we are able to respond to any situation that's in front of us. That's a fundamental belief that I have. So, for me, it was about saying, what do you know to be true? And who do you want to be at this moment in time? And without being, like really dramatic? When you when you look back at yourself at this point in history? How would you like the record to reflect the way that you responded to this crisis?

Will:  

Is that something that you've thought about, like at the start of it? Or is that a subsequent reflection? Because that would be a very Zen way of thinking about it when everything was sort of turned upside down?

Sacha  

Well, to be fair, I've got form, right. So yeah, some people who are listening to this podcast will know that I've had cancer before. I've had aggressive breast cancer when I was 34. And for me, cancer was a real gift in my life, because that was the first time that I got to test of what I believe in is actually true. And if it actually works, but I've always felt that we lived in a very, we were really blessed to be born at the time that we were born, this is a great time in history to be alive. It hasn't been any major world wars that are particularly in New Zealand, that's a pretty New Zealand centric view that I'm putting out there. Other countries have had it much worse, right? Nothing bad has ever really happened to us. And so when you read about these war heroes, or people that have gone through enormous suffering, most of us will at some point, have watched a movie like that and thought, how would I respond and that sort of crisis, and most of us project that we would be amazing, we would be the person who would, you know, never betray our friends. And we would do all the great things that when necessary. We were the heroes doing the right thing. Yeah, who never who never give up, who never lose hope and who fight right to the bitter end. And I'm not sure if that's true. And so, so I've always thought, what would I be like in a crisis? I've also thought, what would I be like if all the things that I rely on coffee, fitness speaking, what could I do? I mean, I have no practical skills, I'm not going to knit, I can't cook, I'm not gonna sew. So I think crisis is a really good time to reflect on what our, you know, our core values are our core beliefs. And it might feel Zen going into anything. But I think it's a great life skill that as soon as things accelerate, particularly crisis, to be able to breathe. But first breathe. Yeah. Knowing what's about to happen, and actually go through with some kind of plan about how you're going to approach what is a hit. I think the biggest challenge that we faced in COVID and that we are still facing now is uncertainty, right. And I think for many people, and I'm included in this, we hate uncertainty, because we like knowing what's going to happen in our lives. And we like knowing what the parameters are for any rational decisions that we might want to make. And something like COVID, what pops up for us as a whole lot of uncertainty and unknowing. And so it can be really rattling for people. And that I understand that.

Will:  

Right, which is something that is as adults that have grown up in kind of stable Western democracies, for most of our adult lives, uncertainty is not really something that we've had to deal with. Change is accelerated, social media's come in, things are a little bit different. But it's been incremental, and nothing's really sort of shaken the board or flip the table. Until this, which really hasn't, I think it's really outlined to a lot of people have, not easy their life might have been but how predictable it was, and therefore how they're able to plan and things may not go to plan. But if they didn't go to plan, it was because of a foreseeable consequence. Whereas now we really don't know what's going to happen, right? Like I, like you, have not struggled like some through COVID. My business is going strong. SH1FT is great. I've got a great relationship, our flat is good. Here in Paris where I am we're not too restricted on what we can do. But my parents are in New Zealand. And as you said, we can't travel in and out, I can go to New Zealand and I have to self isolate in a hotel for 14 days and like, like prison, like isolation from my friends that have gone back. And I don't know when that's going to end and my parents are very, very healthy and very happy. But I really miss them. And the idea of not being able to visit them is something that like it just upsets me and makes me feel a little bit like uncertain about how I'm going to cope with the future and when I will get to see them. And that's a tiny little thing and I know that some people are so struggling with business loss or loss of a job and things that are far more consequential to their lives. And so I feel like this with that relatively manageable thing, it must be really, really difficult for a lot of people. So you talked about planning and thinking about how you're going to respond. Can you elaborate on that a little bit and sort of your process for how you do it?

Sacha  

I think there's a great friend of mine, Matt Church taught me these three things that leaders do a few years ago. He said, the first role of the leader. And remember, when I'm talking about leadership, I'm talking about how we lead ourselves as much as how we lead others. And the very first thing that leaders are charged with doing is creating clarity from confusion. So everybody on the team knows where they're going, and what they're doing. So in this time, of great uncertainty, the thing we can provide for people and we can't provide for ourselves, we can't provide it to our children as clarity. So in those circumstances, what can we do? So I like to use Dr. Stephen Covey's Circles of Influence. And a thing that has enormously helped me through this time, is the absolute truth that I am in control of the things that I can control. Right? So when we are surrounded by so much powerlessness, there is literally nothing that you Will Brereton and Paris can do to change the border laws in either France, UK or New Zealand, right? You can sign a petition, try as you might, your your influence doesn't extend that far, right. So these feelings of powerlessness lead to feelings of hopelessness, can't control this, what's the point? And so I got really good really early at saying I am responsible for the things that I can control. Yeah. And so what are the things that I can control? So I thought about, I can control my attitude, I can control the atmosphere and environment that I create in my home, I can control the way I speak with my husband about things. I'm in control of my own health. At this time, I can take responsibility for listening to the science. I'm in control of the way I speak to my staff in the comfort or encouragement that I can give to them. I'm in control of how much exercise I do, of how much sleep I get, of how many nights I allow myself to just sit and watch Netflix for hours and hours and hours. And how many nights I go, okay, we have to stop, million dollar beach house is not -- I mean, it's bringing you joy in the short term, but it's not taking you any closer towards where you want to be. Right. Yeah. So I think a really a really simple thing to overcome this feeling of powerlessness as to control the things that we can control. And then it's a little easier to let go of the things that we can.

Will:  

So on that when you say let go of the things that you can't do you do you allow yourself to have moments of sort of inconsolable, uncontrolled emotion, or do you keep yourself in check? When do you do that? And how do you do that in light of the previous things that you've resolved to control to your best ability.

Sacha  

So I think it's really important that we engage our humanity at this time and acknowledge the things that we are missing or have lost. And even if we come from positions of great privilege on these things, it's still a loss. So one of the one of the great things for me this year is that my daughter was June, she's 15 and we've been saving up and she was going on a school trip to New York. What an amazing opportunity for her. She's handling that so much better than me. I'm so sad that that's something that she can't do anymore.

Will:  

I hadn't thought about teenagers thinking like looking back to my teenage years, like at least I have perspective, right? Like I've been on the planet for coming up 40 years, and I've had 40 summers and 40 years of travel. Like if I would be inconsolable if that, if I had only had 15 years worth of experience and that have been taken away.

Sacha  

Yeah, and I think I think it's okay to acknowledge those losses. And my friend Dr. Lucy Hone, she's from the New Zealand Wellbeing Institute. And she has a fantastic if I can refer you to research.

Will:  

Yeah, we can put any of this in the show notes. Yeah, there's anything you refer to, refer to as I'll stick it in the notes after.

Sacha  

Perfect. There's a fantastic TED talk that Lucy gives about resilience. And one of the things that that she talks about as a question she asks herself, which is, is this helping or is this harming. So if you look at your old fallen holiday photos with your parents, and that helps you to grieve and to remember with fondness, those times when you will with them, then that's great. But if you can recognize that this is actually sending you into a depressive spiral of doom and gloom, then you just stop and you go, this is not helping me right now. And knowing that I can control what I control, I'm going to choose to put my attention somewhere else, because I do not need to just keep picking at the scab of this wound right now.

Will:  

A little bit of that, full disclosure. Yeah.

Sacha  

The only way you get good at this is by switching on your self awareness. Mm hmm. So part of our journey and kind of leading ourselves is just to become more self aware. So notice, what are the things that make you angry and upset? Or that you get stuck on? What are the inputs that you're allowing in? Do you you know, follow people on Twitter that make you angry? Stop following them. Right? Be be more conscious of what brings you joy, and be conscious of what doesn't bring you joy? What fills your cup, and what just actually drains? You? One of the things that I've done is I don't laugh enough. It's got really, everything's gotten very serious. And so I make I make a habit of there's a couple of kind of go to things I go to. I'm old, right? I'm old and tragic. So I love Greg Norton. So I just watched little Graham Norton clips, and it makes me laugh, and I go, this is good for my soul. I think we should be doing more to get sunshine. To eat healthy food. I think we should be having more sex. I absolutely think that when we get into these kind of funks, we forget the things that bring us joy, right? If you're, if you're in lockdown, and you're on your own, and you know, I can't have sex, I'm like, okay, so if you need to use your imagination, we can help with that, right? But absolutely take yourself to the pleasure zones, whether it's through exercise, through food, through connection with friends, all of these things are really helpful. It doesn't mean that you're in denial about the shit. But it does mean that you step out of wallowing.

Will:  

So you've obviously got a wise perspective on this. So not only kind of going through the things that you've gone through in your life, but also being a speaker, and being a leadership coach, and all of the things that help you to put strategies together and reflect when you think about other people in your life, or maybe people that work for you or work with you. Have you noticed that the way they've responded to COVID has been different to the way you've responded to it?

Sacha  

Yes.

Will:  

Elaborate on that a little bit for me. You don't have anyone specifically, but I think that it's important to kind of talk about the range of people and so be I'd be interested to get your feedback on how some other people have coped and, and whether you think that over the course of the last six months, they've changed their strategies. So rather someone that maybe didn't have quite the same self actualized self aware response to it in the beginning, that's that's learned through the process.

Sacha  

So there's a couple of things that immediately spring to mind. The first is how much fun is it to be a judgy bitch, right? It's just to look, guys, oh, oh, my God, you are doing crisis wrong. You even know how to do a crisis. My kind of disclaimer as always, until we've walked even a meter in someone else's shoes, right. We can't know their experience. Yeah. And I and I have this I have an essential belief that everybody is doing the best they can with what they've got on any given day. But I think without the skills, what we see is we see people who get stuck, and where you get stuck. It's in this inability to accept what is happening. And so I don't know if you've seen much of this and France, but certainly it's huge in the, in the UK and in the States and New Zealand and Australasia as this whole kind of growing conspiracy theory. Oh, wait a moment.

Will:  

Not in France so much actually. But obviously, I follow all of the English speaking news. So

Sacha  

Yeah. So what I think is interesting about that is that if you think back kind of centuries ago, we didn't know why volcanoes exploded. So people believed and are all kinds of gods and myths because we want to make sense of what is happening. We have this human urge and desire to make sense of stuff, right? So if you look at our why we believe dumb stuff, it's because we're just trying to rationalize what's going on for us. So when we don't have the skills to rationalize what's happening in our lives, we come up with dumb stuff and I think that's how we go down conspiracy theory tracks, but it's also how we get stuck. Because we go down a train of thought and your train of thought might be my life's purpose is to be a group fitness instructor. And my club is closed. What has to become of me? And that's a loop. That's a loop that plays on our heads. And we say, the only way we can get back to any sense about purpose is when clubs open again, right? And so that becomes the train that we're on. And it's not until we're confronted with new ways of doing things, maybe I could pivot or parallel wit into doing something else. And we do that by understanding what is teaching group fitness all about for us? How does it serve us, and what's the intersection of how it also serves others, and, and these uncertain times are the other ways that we can do that.

Will:  

So that's really interesting. So one of the things that a lot of the people that are listening to this show and now SH1FT instructors have done is they've pivoted to virtual, and they've started delivering things digitally. And many of them I would say, sort of 60 to 70% have never not only not done it, but they never considered it, they didn't like it, they didn't like the idea of not being in front. But when confronted with the reality of maybe the gyms not opening in the near future, which certainly is the case in a lot of locations, they forced themselves to do it. And then they realize that taking it back to first principles, they were there to do something that they love to connect to provide an experience that was helping other people. And while that was different, and digital, and most people would say, you know, a level back from what I want it to be, it was still something that could provide them with real fulfillment. One question I have for you. And it's a question that someone who listens to the podcast asked me is, they have a small Fitness Studio shut down, they pivoted to virtual, and they've been doing that, and they had a lot of success. But now they're getting to the point where people are not really coming back in person, they're still persevering with digital, they did the pivot, they kept really positive about it. And now six months in, they're beginning to go, oh, shit, maybe this is what the future is. And so they're going from damage control, pivot and find a solution to trying to get their head around the concept that this might be the way it is for a long period of time. And they're struggling with it. Because they while they coped with the crisis, now we're kind of moving out of crisis and into reality, right. And I think that a lot of people are getting to that point where they're sort of wondering, how do I keep my spirits up, when it's not going back to the way it was before? And this is something that we talked about. And you talked about the Stockdale paradox, which maybe is a good thing to interesting thing to discuss here. But what's your advice for someone who feels that, you know, they cope really well with the crisis? But now it feels like the crisis is just never ending? And how do you cope with the change?

Sacha  

Doesn't that feel unfair? It feels unfair. And I think it's super okay to name those feelings. I will talk about the Stockdale paradox. But just before, let me share this course, with you that I went on, it was a Google leadership course. Except it wasn't, it was a meditation course. I would never have gone if I knew it was a meditation course. But it's how Google teaches leadership. And it's the first time I was kind of exposed to this idea of we can feel the feeling and name the feeling but not be consumed by the feeling. So one of that's a skill that's definitely helped me during COVID. So as you describe that, you know, that studio owner or the the group for the in that studio experience, I immediately thought is that so unfair? Yeah. And if I was that person, I'd be going, that is so unfair. And I'm entitled to feel the injustice because I did everything that was asked, I was positive, I took action. I've set this up, and it should be fixed by now. So I think it's okay, when you have those feelings to go. That's what the Google course taught me. I noticed those feelings. I notice I feel angry and disappointed. And then I just release those feelings on off they go. Two days, two days. That's the Google course. Right? We're supposed to feel the feelings, and then watch them as they go.

Will:  

Nice.

Sacha  

I get stuck in the injustice of that right? So. Let's just talk about the Stockdale paradox and how this kind of aligns. So Jim Collins wrote a book, From Food to Great, and yes, that's kind of really shared the Stockdale paradox with the world. So Stockdale was an American soldier was a prisoner of war and Vietnam. He was tortured, horrific circumstances for seven years. And when he came out, he was asked how it was that he was able to survive those conditions when lots of others hadn't. Yeah. And he had an observation where he said the people who found that the hardest were the optimists. And that's counterintuitive, right? That's counterintuitive. The optimist would have struggled. And the reason for that was, they were so hopeful. So they would think, okay, Christmas is coming, we're going to be rescued by Christmas. Easter is coming right, exactly. So that you have this horizon of optimism. And then when you are disappointed, you don't have the wherewithal to then cope with your disappointment, right? And so it's kind of if we, we do a kind of puffy summary, it's that classic hope for the best. But prepare for the worst.

Will:  

Right? Because if you put all your eggs in the hopeful basket, which is the basket that may or may not happen, and then the that doesn't happen, all the eggs broken, you've got nothing left, right?

Sacha  

That's exactly it, not even an omelet. The Stockdale paradox teaches us to face the brutal facts about the situation that we are in, just face them, confront them, look at them, look them in the eye, and then have a rational basis for hope. Beyond that, right. Now, it's not that you have no optimism is that your hope has a rational basis. So the challenge that I want to put in front of everybody in the kind of the fitness world is, what if this is the next five years? Yeah. So rather than saying, I can't wait till we go back in time, yeah. What if this or something worse than this as what we've got? How do you prepare for that? And how can we be optimistic about that world? And that might mean that for the person who's been doing virtual, but now their studio is open, you've got to think about refreshing your offering, you've got to think about what more can you add into the mix? 

Will:  

Hybrid classes, different forms of delivery, like all of this stuff that we were talking about another podcast that hopefully, people are taking action on.

Sacha  

Yeah. So you always want to get closer to your customer in that instance. If you feel your customer pulling away, you get closer to them. Let's talk about this. Right. But the subtle difference in the mindset shift is, rather than I can't wait for things to go back to how they were, it's what's a new world that I can get excited about. Right? And I think about this, I really am. And I'm making this up, so it might not work.

Will:  

I love an analogy!

Sacha  

It springs to mind that this is like relationships. So if the boyfriend that you are looking for, you're just saying, I can't wait to get a boyfriend who's just like my old one who doesn't? Yeah, it will never work, right? Because you need to meet that person with the newness and the freshness that they bring. Yeah. And so what this new, this new world, what are the opportunities inherent in that? It's exhausting. Yeah, it's unfair. But this is survival of the fittest. And one of the things that I am, I gotta say, I laugh at fitness people about, is you guys are so physically tough. Physically tough, right? You want to do some HIIT training, you want to do 700,000 press-ups every day and burpees and kick your legs up like a donkey, knock yourself out, go for it. When things get a little bit tough, business wise or mentally? Oh, how you doing sweetie? So how can you translate that incredible physical endurance, which is after all mental endurance? Right, it is a mental ability to get your body to keep going. Yeah. How do you transfer that into life? And how do you transfer that into your business? Where you go, oh, I'm pleased, it's getting tougher. Because I'm really good when it gets tough.

Will:  

I mean, that's, that's a transformation that, that I've, I would like to be on the path to, but I think I'm a few steps back. It's really interesting, though. I have this this year, and I use myself as an example, because obviously, that's the best example I have when talking about my own opinions and feelings -- I have been watching the situation New Zealand going, maybe it's gonna change. Maybe they'll allow people to self isolate at home, maybe I won't have to do two weeks in prison. And I've subsequently realized that it's probably not going to change. And I listened to a really interesting podcast a couple of weeks back, I can stick it in the show notes, where a very prominent epidemiologist was asked point blank, do you think the vaccine will come next year and she's like, to be honest, it might but that's the miracle approach, and no one should ever be basing their actions on a miracle. She her view was that the most likely scenario is Even if a vaccine is created in the next few months, the idea of it being manufactured distributed given to the people that need it, as well as all those policy and political decisions that will come in the middle means that it's probably two years minimum of living the way we're living now. And that doesn't mean two years of restrictions and lockdowns, but it does mean two years of a different way of life, before we can even consider going back to the way it was before. And then you have to realize that if we've lived a different way, for almost three years, our behaviors have changed. And this is something that we've talked about, with fitness professionals a lot, when people probably aren't going back into the office ever again, to the degree that they were before everyone has gotten used to working from home, people with families, people have long commutes, and now not going to be going back in. So what does that mean for fitness as well as other industries or hospitality, right, is that the center of the city is going to be different, it might have less people, it certainly won't have the full on rush hours. Because by no way shape and form is anyone ever getting on a packed tube like they used to in London, like I think that those times are gone, people are just not gonna be willing to do it. So these changes are probably medium term, and then elements of them will be sort of permanent changes. So understanding where to from here, rather than I want to go back is probably the best approach to moving forward. I've just talked a whole lot I want to hear your opinion.

Sacha  

I think there's a couple of key things that come out of what you've just said for me. The first is that even if the vaccine comes in two years time, and we say let's go back to how it was, we will be completely different. So if it's, if it's three years away, I'll be 50. I can't even I can't even conceive of what that means. Fucking hell. Wow, wow. Right? I will hopefully not have any children living at home by then. That's a whole new world. So we'll be in a completely different life stage whatever has happened in the intervening period. Right? So predicting how we might feel in two years time, I'm going to be a different person. Have you heard that new Billy Eilish song about her future? She's like, I have no, that's such a great recommend from me, guys. That's about how she's in love with her future self, and who she's going to be. And I love that idea of saying even when I'm finding it tough right? Now, imagine who I'm going to be as I come out of this, and that's something to aspire to. So I want to go back to just what you said about the present of the quarantine, you know that you don't have any influence over the prison of the quarantine? Yeah, the thing that is in control that you are in control of is your shitty attitude to them? Mm hmm. You could you could do a shift, right, you could do a shift that said, for two weeks, I stay in this great hotel, the food is average, but I'm going to manage a pan around a gift to be able to go to virtually COVID free New Zealand. And if you switched, you know, you know that this is possible. And I'm kind of joking with you. But I think it's an illustrated point, that if you are stuck in "it's a prison, it's a prison" that's not helpful for you. So as an example to like anyone who's listening, you can see I mean, it's funny to call it a prison, and it's probably

Will:  

--it was actually described to me as a prison yesterday.

Sacha  

You know what? You and I were both lawyers and former lives, right? Yep. So I've been to prisons. I've had clients that I've visited in prisons, let me tell you, it is not a prison. And I think this is an instructive kind of lesson around our languaging as well. Yeah, we got we got to be careful about where we get stuck in now. Because let me share this with you as well. 

Will:  

-- I love being  schooled by Sasha, this is great.

Sacha  

--and this is something you won't necessarily have experienced on, but if you are not just a woman but woman doing most of the child raising. If you're a woman and you've had kids, you fantasize about going to prison about have been like locked up and no one can disturb you. Food gets brought to you. So let's not be disrespectful of those who are unfairly incarcerated, but the the hospital or fantasy where people actually look after you and your only responsibility is to like read a book and watch Netflix and chill with yourself with your good self. Yeah, it's okay. And so we have the power to shift our mindsets on any of the blocks that are in front of us. To be clear, I'm not holding us all individually responsible for the shitty things that are happening because of decision makers in our world, right? So we got to be really careful that we're not just saying, are you're feeling a bit stink about things, well get a new attitude. It's not as trite as that. But it is more helpful to find a way to get a mindset that will enable you to not just survive, but to thrive at this time.

Will:  

Yeah, absolutely. Right. And that is a really good point that you make, because it illustrates a lot of the stuff that I agree with, which is the way you frame things. And the way you talk about things, you know, what is it thoughts become words, words become actions, actions have become beliefs, beliefs become who you are a character. Exactly. So the prison, the prison that like, it's, it's almost my humorous way of working through it, because I lately I wasn't, I just wasn't gonna do it. And I was just hoping that like, I'm like, give me an ankle bracelet, put an app on my phone, just let me go to my family home, and I won't leave, I promise, I'll stay in my room or just go to the backyard. And now I'm realizing that the reality of the situation is that New Zealand government has a website, they're very, like specific about exactly what they're doing, there's probably not gonna be a change in government, therefore their policy is staying. And so now I'm in the process of working myself into understanding that if I want to go home and see my family, I need to do this two week quarantine. And that means that I need to be away from my family and friends up here, because I need to make it worthwhile. And so I'm in the mental process. And I only really made this decision on the weekend, because I just thought about, like, what do I want to do? I want to see my parents. And so this is my process of working through it. I wholly agree with you that like I get to the end of I'm kind of making light of it at the moment. But I'm the realization that the facts are I have to do it. So I just have to accept them. If I want to do a summer in New Zealand and see my parents, then I need to go through this 14 days. And as you mentioned before, the privilege of being able to actually be able to take that time because I work for myself as something that I can choose to appreciate rather than feeling that I have to endure the 14 days.

Sacha  

Yeah, well, I'm gonna start a petition called keep Will out of New Zealand. Let's see how that goes. What what I think is as as more useful from kind of, we're talking about the specifics of your situation, as also just to play some mental gymnastics where you go. And in a situation you find hard to do, what's the worst thing that could happen? And the worst thing about that two weeks experience won't be that bad. So for you guys that are listening to the show, if you've got something that you're really kind of, you don't want to do, and you're pushing against that are useful thing to ask yourself is, so what's the worst thing that could happen? Yeah. And often the worst thing is not very bad. And the other thing that you ask yourself as what are the circumstances that would cause you to regret your inability to get over that thing? Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, we can all think of times where we haven't gone through with something, and yet, that we regret that we didn't push through the thing that needed to be pushed through, you know, what, whatever, whatever that is. And if we take the Stockdale thing as an example, sometimes it's just facing the brutal facts. I'll give you an example from our business at the moment, we have a coffee shop that's closed. Yeah. And that's tough for us. We don't like having closed coffee shops that cost us money for the lease. We're letting down the guests in that area. But the brutal reality of the economics and net market, we cannot afford to have it open. Right now, I'm internally optimistic. So I'm like, let's just open the doors and people will come and, and at some point, we just sat down and we looked at each other as shareholders and directors and said, we have to face this now, we have to face that this one, at this time, is not working right and be brave enough to face what may in fact, be a failure.

Will:  

Right. Sorry, I just picked up on the word failure. Because it I think it's something that is that maybe we don't talk about enough as sort of as a society or as a group, but choosing to let something go or understanding that you might not have, you might not have achieved the goal that you set yourself before the world changed. You know, it can be viewed as a failure. But at the same time, we're in a world where you have to make rational decisions about the way forward and viewing it in terms of success and failure. On the old goals of the old world is maybe not the kindest way you can view it. And I know that a lot of instructors who have built up their own studios or businesses or community organizations, they're really struggling because they're getting half the number of people there are they're only getting five or six people there. And they just feel like all that hard work is now gone. But you know, it's it's about building up and being rational and thinking about the new stuff that can come through all the things we talked about kind of 10 minutes prior.

Sacha  

Absolutely, right.

Will:  

And so I think that you mentioned something else, to me actually before the call, which is five ways to wellbeing. So I've just thrown that on you. But it was something that I thought would be a really, really good kind of actionable thing that people who are listening to this could consider. Is that something you can tell me more about?

Sacha  

Yeah. So let's come back to first principles, you can control what you can control. So when you're having a down day or a down week, and you feel things spiraling, just ask yourself, are you doing the things that you know, will help. And so here in New Zealand for September, the Mental Health Foundation have a month without promoting mental health awareness and well being? And they've released our five steps, basically are five things we can do to keep ourselves? The first one is to connect, that we are social beings. And there is a tendency sometimes when we're feeling a bit flat to retract, I'm not going to be great company right now. So I'll pull away. Yeah. And then we end up in this pattern of being disconnected from the people that are important to us. The paradox, of course, is that we're all spending so much more time on zoom calls.

Will:  

Yeah, hyper connected, right.

Sacha  

We have that this hyperconnection, but it's not the it's not the same as those real talks that we have. Doesn't have to be in real life. But it does need to be real in terms of the kind of the cat the bullshit, having a bloody tough day. Yeah. Can I just tell you about some stuff? Or to go to a friend and say, You know what, I want to hang out, but I don't have any words, can you just tell me about your day? I had, I had lunch with a friend today. And he keeps saying, so tell me about you? And I'm like, Oh, god, no, please. I know all about me. Yeah, so the first one is to connect. The second one is to give. And that doesn't. We're not talking about money here. We're talking of looking outside of yourself. What are the ways that you can help others? Are you helping your neighbor run their groceries and those little random acts of kindness that we can do? If you have extra food? Are you able to share it with somebody just to look beyond ourselves as a really useful thing? And I often think about it in business terms we learned about it in Harvard Business School...

Sacha  

Harvard Business School.

Sacha  

Yeah, how do you know someone's been to Harvard Business School? They tell you. Ah, and what the professor was talking about was the game of football, soccer in the States. And that when kids, when kids are little, they very much just all bunched around the ball, and their eyes are always down at their feet. And it's not until they get older, and they learn more about the game, that they lift their eyes up. And they start looking beyond the ball at their feet. And I think when we talk about giving, that's what we're doing when we're looking from within ourselves, and being absorbed with our own problems, to just having the courage to look up your cup and say what's a little bit out in front of us. So there's ways that you can give, it's a tired old cliche that it's better to give than it is to receive, but we know that it helps out our well being.

Will:  

Yeah, and then, you know, psychologically proven fact, right? Like,

Sacha  

Yeah, these are not like nice to haves. The research absolutely backs us up. The third one is to take notice. And that is about being mindful the things that we've talked about before switching your self awareness. Imagine you've got a drone kind of above your head. And you just notice during the day when you slept, what are the things that that bring you down, and what are the things that elevate you? What, what brings you joy, notice those things, take those moments. The fourth thing number four is to keep learning. Challenge yourself to learn something new. If I translated all of my Netflix hours into something useful. It's great to have downtime for sure. But how often do you find yourself I mean, my husband, I wait, because we're at the age now where we have separate couches. So he's on his couch, on my couch. And we'll get into a show and we'll look at each other. The show ends and we go, can you do one more? I can do one more babe. So you get to the end of that 40 minutes and there's another cliffhanger. You got one more. I can do one more. And before you know it, it's 2am Right, because you've been watched, we could be more productive in that time. Keep learning. What What can you learn in a structured and disciplined way?

Will:  

For me that was um, French language -- not going so well.

Sacha  

How are you going?

Will:  

Terribly, but I'm trying harder. I've actually got a listen today.

Sacha  

Yeah. But Dave can speak French when he was in France at the bottom of the Eiffel Tower, he was playing frisbee with these guys. And so he just he went up to them and said, hey, you guys, you want to play the Frisbee?

Will:  

In that accent or in French?

Sacha  

No, in that accent. That's not French. Just going, oh oui, oui, oui, does not make you French. So yeah, learn some new stuff. And the fifth thing which you guys are gonna be people listening to the show will be all over this one. It's to be active.

Will:  

Right, yeah.

Sacha  

It's to make a choice to be active. What I love about that people in fitness is you understand actions have consequences, better better than most, because you know how to train your bodies.

Will:  

A lot of fitness instructors who have taken that plunge to do something a little bit different, sort of the ones that are thinking, Oh, is this the way it's always going to be have marveled at the impact that, you know, getting on zoom and teaching a class over zoom has had on other people during this time. And I think that like if that is one thing that a lot of instructors have certainly said to me that they feel particularly good that they can provide a good thing for other people to do. Even if they're feeling a little bit shitty, and uncertain and anxious. Delivering that class and seeing the change it brings to all these other people that don't have the facility to make themselves active, they need someone else to sort of push them towards it is really a positive change. So it kind of ticks off. So many of those things connection giving, taking notice, maybe not keep learning, and maybe it's keeping learning if they're doing it with technology. But delivering classes can cover all of those five things. And so that's one positive about the new world, right?

Sacha  

And this is definitely learning when you are dealing with a new technology -- is my mic on? Can you hear me?

Will:  

Yes, this new podcast as I've completely understood, learning technology is fun. Okay, so

Sacha  

Turn your video on!

Will:  

So I actually think that's a great place to finish up with some really kind of things that people that are listening can really think about how they can incorporate those things into their life, if they're not already, well, how to maybe appreciate or recognize them a little bit more if they're doing them already. Because I think a lot of people are doing all those five things. And they're maybe not being mindful about, like, how great that is that they're managing to do that when times are tough. You've mentioned loads of stuff. We're going to link to everything you see in the show notes. Is there any other other any other kind of resources or things that you've watched or read recently that have been particularly helpful because I know that you're a real good consumer of positive things that are good for your brain?

Sacha  

So I think if you are anywhere near to my age or younger, everybody should read Glennon Doyle's book Untamed. It is all about freedom and about living your best life and being brave enough to make tough decisions and being true to who you are. I'd love to encourage everybody, I think that we are, we are really powerful beyond measure. So kind of Tony Robbins or Marianne Williamson quote, and that one of the things that sister Glennon says to us is we can do hard things. And I don't know who needs to hear these things, but I want to leave you with them. The first one is that you are enough. Everything that has brought you to this place in your life is what will sustain you through the next steps. And all that is required. I've asked us to put our eyes up and say I take one more breath. I take one more action. I send one more act of love to the people I care most about I do one more thing. And then tomorrow, mercy comes with the morning. So whenever we have those shitty days, if we can get through the night, we wake up in the morning, we are refreshed, replenished and ready to go. We can do this. We can do this. This is our time. You want to know how you would have been in the war. You know, would you have been the hero? This is where we get to write our character. We get to write who it is that we end up being and that's something that we are in control of.

Will:  

Yep, completely Well, Sacha Coburn, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really hoping that I'll get to see you in person at the end of the year when I've been through the wonderful 14 days of self reflection in the hotel room. But until then, thank you very much for being on the show.

Sacha  

Thanks, Will love to you all.

Will:  

thanks for listening to my show with Sacha. I bet you've thought of a few situations while listening to them, where you've taken a less than positive view on things. And that's totally normal. We all do it. You heard when I did it, just thenn. But what I want you to do is to take some time to reflect on this. Think about the biggest challenges or struggles that you've faced this year, or that you're dealing with right now and be really honest with yourself, strip out the negative, strip out the hope for a miracle and think realistically and pragmatically, is there a different way that I could do this? I loved what Sasha said about group met his group, fitness instructors and strength. As a fitness instructor, you have to be mentally and physically strong. So we know we've got that in us. We just need to channel some of that mental capacity for our physical challenges into some of the other issues that we're faced with. What's the worst that could happen? Because chances are, it's not as bad as you manifesting. Join me next week when I speak to Kal from Onpodio, a startup in the instructor space. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.