Vanessa  

I was pulled aside and I just remember being very politely told that, yeah, you're, Vanessa, you are out of shape, you are fat and for this reason, we are going to take off one of the tracks that you've been allocated to present and give it back to another presenter because you're not athletic enough. And we'll also position you on the stage to kind of hide you. And then there was obviously the question of wardrobe and we'll make sure that we put them into something that you know, you feel comfortable and I think the 'you feel comfortable' came across when I was uncontrollably crying in the corner and you know, absolutely mortified.

Will:  

Hey, I'm Will Brereton, founder of Sh1ft Fitness, and this is Group Fitness Real Talk, a show about how to survive and even thrive as an instructor in 2020 and beyond. Have you ever felt pressured by the fitness industry to look a certain way? Maybe you felt the need to be more toned, whatever that means. Perhaps you've worried that older people representing your program are a generation younger than you. Or maybe you've worked at a gym or facility where no one in the branding or advertising shares is your skin color. Welcome to Group Fitness Real Talk. Today on the show, we're talking to my good friend Vanessa Labort about her career and her particular experience of working in an industry where looking a certain way is sadly often more important than the skills and the talent that you bring to the table. Unrealistic stereotypes of what a fitness professional should look like around body age, skin color, or physical ability is something that many if not most of us have struggled with and Vanessa's particular experience of being pulled aside and told that she didn't look the right way to represent a brand is something that many of us have feared. This topic is very important to me and Vanessa and something we're actively working to champion at Sh1ft Fitness. Now, I believe that this is a must listen episode for every instructor whether you've experienced this personally or not, because we all have responsibility as an industry to be more inclusive of diverse bodies, because the more inclusive we are, the less people feel excluded if they aren't a certain shape, or age or color. And that should be our ultimate goal as fitness professionals to improve the lives of our community by bringing as many people into fitness as we possibly can. So here's the interview with Vanessa. So welcome to the podcast Vanessa Labort. How are you?

Vanessa  

I'm great. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited.

Will:  

It's a pleasure. So this podcast is called Group Fitness Real Talk. And I'm excited for you to be one of the first guests because one thing I know about you from years of knowing you is that you always talk real.

Vanessa  

Yeah, I do. I find it, I find it a lot easier that way a lot easier to navigate our relationships. And yeah, I've been known for that.

Will:  

I would say that that's true. So some people that are listening to this podcast are gonna know you from your Les Mills experience. Other people are gonna be meeting you for the first time. So I guess one of the first things I want to talk about is the fact that people listening to this are gonna hear an Australian accent, but they might be surprised to know that you're not actually an Australian. Can you tell me a little bit about your background?

Vanessa  

Yeah, this is probably the question that I've been asked most in my life. So yes, I was born in the Netherlands, in a very small city called Arnhem. And I lived there until I was nine. And my parents decided then to up and move and they quite liked the look of Australia and as a very, very small country town a couple of hours south of Sydney. So that's how we ended up in Australia.

Will:  

What town were you in Australia?

Vanessa  

Um, it was a little place called Bundanoon, which is in Southern Highlands. I mean, I, you know, I don't think he could get sort of any more quintessentially rural Australia is that so that was a very interesting shift. Yeah.

Will:  

Right. So you went from small town Netherlands or sort of mid-city Netherlands to small town Australia.

Vanessa  

Oh, it was it was country it was it was this country is that could get in Australia. And yeah, I mean, the city that I was from in the Netherlands wasn't overly huge, you know, but it's the Netherlands.

Will:  

So how old were you when that happened?

Vanessa  

I was nine, I was nine and I'm actually the youngest of five. The very, very, very baby of five so I have three older sisters and have an older brother. Now the reason for going to Australia was actually that my brother married and Australia girl. And so he moved out first and my parents loved it when we went to visit, and but it meant that my three sisters who were much older than me and had their own families never moved to Australia. So all of a sudden, I had three sisters and sort of, you know, nephews, and a niece left in, in Holland in Amsterdam. And I was in Australia with my brother and his grown up family.

Will:  

So your accent is individual amongst your immediate family then...

Vanessa  

Nobody else has got this accent except hopefully my nieces and my nephews who were who were raised in Australia, right. But yeah, not even my brother. And definitely not my parents. And obviously my sisters have that sort of Euro, Euro accent, Euro English accent.

Will:  

And so you were speaking Dutch when you moved to Australia?

Vanessa  

Yeah, I didn't speak a word of English. I had this very vivid recollection actually, of, you know, and it was it was 1995. I mean, you know that was no sort of mollycoddling of--

Will:  

No duo lingo for you to do on the way over?

You know, let's see how this is gonna impact her emotionally. It was very much he was just, here's your schoolbag, we booked you into school. Off you go. Good luck.

Will:  

So the Netherlands and Australia are pretty different countries culturally and weather wise and location. How did that make you feel when you got taken from one to the other?

Vanessa  

Oh, I mean, you know, we've been on holiday there before. And I remember loving it, you know, as I said, you hate the summer and you know, the outdoors and that was, you know, as I said, we we moved to very rural Australia. So that was a completely different ballgame for me and a really exciting one as I think you know, for any nine year old kid, you know, lots of new experiences. I had my family and it was exciting. I think, you know, culturally the language was a definite barrier. And then of course, you realize pretty quickly because kids are brutal, that you know, you don't quite look like everybody else either. And that was, that was definitely something that that became apparent really, really quickly.

Will:  

So we're gonna circle back to that a little bit later on. But I think getting back to the fitness, so you were at school in Australia, tell me how you found fitness and how that became sort of the career of your future.

Vanessa  

Oh, I love this. I love this part of my life. I was absolutely dreadful at sport. Um..

Will:  

Me too. 

Vanessa  

Anything that involves a ball and a bat and a hand eye coordination was just a disaster. I would be the girl you know, making daisy chains on the hill when I was supposed to be fielding in some sort of sports, you know, catching the ball. I don't know. I don't know what I was supposed to be doing. I would be the one who would hide behind the bushes. You know, when they were doing cross country anything and sort of splash water on my face and pretend that I'd made it. You know, I was always last to be picked on onto PE teams and of course growing up in Australia as I'm sure but you know, it was very similar to you know, sport is it was it was a religion. Everybody played something after school and everybody was pretty good at something at sport and oh, wow, I really really wasn't. I didn't enjoy it. I just had nothing. So, my sister in law was the 80s. And my sister in law was really into her home workout videos, I remember.

Will:  

Mhm, funny that.

Vanessa  

Tai Bo for a long time. And she had some incredible Jane Fonda videos, which I sort of plucked one afternoon at her house.

Will:  

Did you really find your way into fitness through Billy Blanks and Tai Bo videos? That's crazy cuz me too, he had that like red kind of two piece that would look good now

Vanessa  

Yes!! Um, but it was really it was the it was the Jane Fonda exercise videos and, and Denise Austin I think it was that she was into that I remember borrowing and that was it and I think it was the combination of music to movement. I've always been super, super passionate and had very much a musical type of way of learning things and I always really resonated with you know, music and the beat and lyrics and and so I think finding a way to move which to me was never exercise, it was always more like just dancing and having a great time. And I very quickly became obsessed. So that was well and truly before you're allowed to go to the gym in Australia, the average the official age to be able to go to the gym is 14 and nine months. And so I remember

Will:  

14 and nine months, that's weird.

Vanessa  

So random. But I remember waiting for 14 and nine months and I started going to the gym as soon as they allowed it. And you know, front row at the aerobics class with my scrunched up socks and my, you know, thong leotard over the top of my tights, and I absolutely loved it. And I just remember thinking I could do this and I love it. And you know, I was really lucky that I had some incredible role models growing up at the little country gym that I was at and people that I still look up to now. And fast forward a few a couple of years later, you know, obviously got your driver's license and I was going to the gym by myself. Started weightlifting, really enjoyed that as well. But then a company called Les Mills brought body pump or pump as it was called back in 1995 to Australia and I was one of the people in my gym who was asked to go to that training and that sort of revolutionized you know,

Will:  

yeah, group fitness in general.

Vanessa  

Definitely group fitness in Australia, but absolutely things to me. I mean, not only could I now just learn the choreography it was it was super cutting edge, it was super different. And you know, people loved it. And you know, I was really good at it.

Will:  

Um, so you are teaching body pump and you're feeling really confident on the stage. And then you get the call up to be on the Les Mills Australia training team, which is, is really kind of the height of achievement and what a lot of instructors strive to achieve in their instructor career. Can you talk me through how you got picked in how you got selected from the team?

Vanessa  

Wow. So um, I was living back in Australia at that time and I then started teaching body step as well as body attack. I believe I might have done my body balance training at some point. And I was loving teaching, I was really enjoying it. I was living in Sydney. And I was very fortunate that I got to teach it clubs where a lot of the Les Mills Australia or Asia Pacific team was either coordinating or teaching at the time. And I do remember a really great friend of mine, Chris Hatton, who was watching my classes or my body set class actually at the back of a at the back of a class one time and he sort of said to me, he said, I really think that you should try to be on the team but you know, as he said, back then it was it was very much the holy grail and I you know, already thought I was overshooting the mark. Okay, well, that would be like, that will be fun. And so you know, the application came around and I applied, I got invited to a bootcamp. I don't know how they do it these days, but I got invited to a bootcamp where you not only had to teach, but you also had to present a section for training. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And I failed so miserably that it, you know, lots of tears and lots of, you know, because I just literally didn't have a clue what I was supposed to be doing.

Will:  

You'd never any educational presentation of their point. 

Vanessa  

Nooo. No, I just, you know, I just taught classes. And so went away and did all the work. And I realized that that's actually something that, you know, I did want to do and it was, it was definitely the next step for me, my career. I was very passionate about teaching classes, and I thought, you know, I'd love to be able to present at events. I'd love to be able to train other people. And so I was actually invited back to another bootcamp.

Will:  

So you didn't get through in the first bootcamp? Okay. I didn't know that about you.

Vanessa  

No, I most certainly didn't. And looking back...Yeah, and I, there was no surprises there. And when you say that, you know, you look back and you realize why and I'm ever so grateful because it allowed me just to get my priorities straight and figure out whether that's what I really wanted to do and also realize that you can't just wing everything in life.

Will:  

A valuable lesson learned.

Vanessa  

Yes. And so I attended the second bootcamp and got through and I was chosen as a presenter for body step at first. I remember my trainer manager at the time, was quite keen on just developing you in one program and really sort of honing in on that. And you know, even after all of those years body step was always my favorite. Yeah, it was always the program that I felt so confident in and so happy doing. And so then followed body attack. Yep. And then obviously moving back to the UK. In 2007 when I joined the UK trainer team, I also became a trainer for body pump.

Will:  

Right? And that's when you and I met. So Vanessa and I met in the Les Mills international office right before the body attack 58 filming, because you were doing the options and I was presenting in that DVD. I remember meeting you in the office and being like, fast friends immediately. And I was moving to the UK right when you were moving back. And we both arrived at the same time and started teaching the same gym and we've sort of been friends ever since. So I want to move now to something that we've talked about a lot between the two of us over the years and that is at the top of the fitness profession where you were sitting where you're training and presenting and really delivering top class fitness experiences to to customers to other trainers and being looked up to by a lot of trainers. Did you feel any pressure to look a certain way?

Vanessa  

Oh, absolutely. I don't even have to think about that. And I think that you'd be hard pressed finding anybody -- male, female, regardless of age, who doesn't. In the industry, it's it's still very much an industry where the way you look is your business card. You know, I've heard that so many times. 

Will:  

Oh, wow. I haven't heard that for a while, you know, but I remember. Wow, that is that's taking me back. I feel like that's not the kind of thing people say anymore. But now hearing you say that I just remember hearing it hundreds of times in my early career, hundreds.

Vanessa  

Yeah. And, you know, it was always even though --

Will:  

It always seemed as a negative for me as well. Like I never felt like that was something being positively said. It was it was a warning.

Vanessa  

It was a warning. It was very much a yardstick that people held you by and I definitely definitely think that if it wasn't openly said it was always an undercurrent. And this is, you know, this is through having so many discussions and you know, just experiences not just mine but also other people's and when I say people I really really want to stress it, it's not just women, it's also men. Absolutely. I think, you know, does it get worse at the top of your profession? Maybe. But I think maybe you know, a lot of that is the pressure that that you put on yourself because of the undercurrents. I just remember my life very much going on in sort of quarters because I know that that's how we present the material. And it was sort of you know, X amount of time was preparing for the workshop. And when I say preparing, I mean looking a certain way so

Will:  

Right, so not the choreography and the music...

Vanessa  

Oh know that another night that was you know, that was not a problem. But you know, restricting food, upping even more exercise than the five classes you were teaching that day. You know, really thinking about what you ate, because you you always heard the words you know ripped and in shape and you know or such and such looks great or such and such is out of shape or, you know, such and such is lean or such and such is shredded. And so then there'd be the prep time. And then I remember, you know, they, they literally be about a week's space where you could kind of go nuts and eat whatever you wanted, before it all began again, you know, there'd be the slight tapering off of while, you know, it's almost upon us again and--

Will:  

Right. So it's fair to say from what you're saying that this is not something that came easily to you. This is something that you struggled with.

Vanessa  

Absolutely, it was a constant struggle. It was a constant struggle between my ears, and also you know, the way that my body likes to look naturally. You know, not just with lots of wine and lots of you know, junk food, but just genetically the shape that I am, the way that you know, my body is built naturally absolutely was a big challenge.

Will:  

Right. So you felt, without putting words in your mouth, you felt like you were kind of fighting, the way that you were being led to look was different to the way that your body kind of naturally looked when you were,

Vannessa  

interestingly enough, and I would love to expand on this a little further, but this is something that I've only very recently realized. All I knew at the time was that it was a constant fight. It was constant battle and why on earth you know, just my body did not want to do that. Whilst looking at somebody who looks completely different to me.

Will:  

Yeah. So you're at the you're at the top of the profession. And you're, you're killing it when it comes to actually what you're delivering and the educations and all that. You're struggling with kind of the body image part but then you get the call up to do Les Mills DVDs, which I think is kind of the pinnacle of what a lot of instructors listening to this. Those that aren't Les Mills instructors, it's essentially being asked to be the figurehead of the format that you teach for a whole quarter. And it comes with a lot of fanfare, a trip across the world to New Zealand in a really kind of intensive boot camp to become a better instructor. So there's so many amazing things about it. Tell me about that experience for you when you got the call.

Vanessa  

Oh, it was it was great. I do remember, you know, going through the process of, you know, really, really, really wanting that. I mean, at that time it as you said, it was the pinnacle, it was a very much deserved opportunity that you were given. Yeah, it was it was it was it was amazing. It was such a great experience. And as you said, you know, I was very fortunate enough to be asked to do five DVDs

Will:  

That means you did a good job.

Vanessa  

Not one and done, haha. And yeah, you know, I loved them. I loved my experience, I learnt so very, very much about myself about, you know, coaching about the difference of coaching, you know, for educational purposes, rather than what's going on on a Wednesday night in your local club and in your local, you know, with the members that know you, you know, coaching for maximum impact rather than just stuff that sounds really great. And, you know, they they really were and even though you know, I guess looking back, you know, did I think I was at the pinnacle, not really, not then, what can I do? But you know, back then it was just an awesome opportunity. And I remember the first DVD I was asked to present was in 2009. And then obviously, you know, the other four followed and it was a great experience and I felt that you know, my skills and and my dedication to becoming a great instructor and a great coach had been recognized. And it was it was wonderful to, to be able to, yeah, add that to my...

Will:  

Yeah 100%. So I've worked for a few different fitness companies now and I will say that the process of selecting someone to be on the Les Mills DVD at a time, I guess and because it is called a presentation now, but selecting someone to be in a video presentation at that time, sort of in the early 2000s was, you had to work. It really was selected kind of from an international squad of people that were all working in it full time, massively passionate, and kind of getting called up. It was really to represent your country at that time, right? Because you had to be kind of selected through your international training team as a representative of your country to New Zealand, we would then do kind of an eight day intensive boot camp to be the absolute best instructor of that format that you could ever be. And I can't think of an experience that I've had, where you really hone in on being excellent at one specific thing for such a period of time and learn so much in such a condensed period about the thing that you're already pretty skilled at because you've been selected in the first place.

Vanessa  

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's a process that, you know, it was all the emotions, you know, in those eight days and they tell you that at the start. You go through all of the emotions, you know, you'll think you'll come in you'll think, you know, all you think this is easy, you'll do it, you'll start to fall, you know, then you'll completely sort of break down what you thought it should look and sound like and then you know, it will, the process will build you back up again. And, and it's perfectly timed so that at the end of that process, you know, you are your absolute very, very best on filming day. And as you said, you know, the process is just such a great process for you know, for them to be able to choose the people that are going to represent, you know, the global market so well.

Will:  

So, there was one New Zealand experience which was a little bit more difficult than the rest of them, I think would have been the fourth one right? Which your body step was this?

Vanessa  

Oh, that was buddy step 100. And yes,

Will:  

Tell me a little bit about body step 100 because I think it relates a little bit to some of the stuff that we've spoken about already.

Vanessa  

It definitely relates a lot to what we spoke about. Body Step 100 was, was a very, very, very challenging timeframe for me. It was a January filming, so we just come off the back of the winter here and

Will:  

Winter, christmas, the cold...

Vanessa  

Cold, you know, and a lot of it was me thinking they that is my fourth DVD clearly they kind of like what comes out of my mouth and the way that I move. Mm hmm. And so I turned up and obviously they have a very set plan for the timeframe that you're there and being body step 100 I remember being quite a big team. So you know, it was planned down to you know, very much the hours of the day and that you know, you have your meeting you start off with and then day one and all the classes that you teach together and I just remember on day two being pulled aside and nobody had said anything and nothing had been said prior to this, prior to me going out to New Zealand. And then on day two, I was actually pulled aside by the program coach who's sort of someone that, you know, coaches everybody through the week, I guess. And I was pulled aside and I just remember being very bluntly told that, yeah, you're you Vanessa, you are out of shape. You are fat. And for this reason, we are going to take off one of the tracks that you've been allocated to present and give it back to another presenter because you're not athletic enough. And we'll also position you on the stage to kind of hide you. And then there was obviously the question of wardrobe and we'll make sure that we put you in something that you know, you feel comfortable in. I think the 'you feel comfortable' came across when I was uncontrollably caught crying in the corner and you know, absolutely mortified. Now I had heard of this happening before to another trainer. And this girl had actually been sent home back to her country.

Will:  

For not looking the right way.

Vanessa  

For not looking the right way she'd been sent home and told that she was not going to be presenting on on that particular DVD. And so my instant gut reaction was horribly embarrassed, a little confused. And so I remember through tears and sort of sobbing saying, do do do I go home now? And that person sort of looked at me with shock and they said, well, no, my god, no, absolutely not. You know, we want you here because your coaching is so amazing. And I just remember at that particular moment was when the penny really dropped for me with the fact that I was fighting very much a losing battle between it didn't matter how talented you were, it didn't matter what you brought, you know, skillswise, it really really was all about the way that you looked, which I think in that moment, you know, glass shattered in my ears and bells started ringing in my head looking back, and I would have handled the situation very differently.

Will:  

Tell me about that. What would you have done different like if you had that time again? What would you have done?

Vanessa  

Looking back, I would have smiled, thanked that person for their time, gone back to the hotel, pack my bags and got back on a plane. You know, but having that time again is always different to when you're in the moment and I think when when I was in the moment, I was mortified. And I remember speaking to some people who, you know, sort of said, don't be ridiculous, you know, you're, you're so great and then having to go through a whole week.

Will:  

Oh, right, because it's an eight day process, right? So you've got six more days of being on stage every day.

Vanessa  

And knowing that this is what they think and knowing that, you know, you're going to be put in a garbage bag because quite frankly, that's what you are. And that's what you look like. I will be honest, I did the least amount of prep that I'd ever done. I did absolutely no scripting. I pretty much got up on that stage and delivered what I delivered. What came to my head because my heart was just no longer in it. My heart was no longer in it because I think as I said, you know, at that moment, I just realized that it didn't matter for DVDs and you know, vast experience now as a presenter, an international presenter and an international trainer, and it made no difference whatsoever. Of course, I didn't learn my lesson there. But yeah, that was that experience. 

Will:  

So that was it. But that wasn't your last DVD.

Vanessa  

No. My last experience was really interesting. I was asked back, which, you know, at first I laughed so hard and you know, all sorts of explicatives came out of my mouth. Hell, no, I'm, there's no way I'm doing this. Yeah. And then I do remember my training manager at the time saying, you know, you were asked because you, you know, you, you are one of the best in the world. Yeah. And I would like you to go, yeah, and, you know, basically show them and prove what, what you have, again, I would have, I would have done this so differently had it been...

Will:  

Because I was friends with you at the time. And I remember this, and I remember two things about that. One is that you train extremely hard and got yourself into a physical condition that you thought would be more appropriate for what they wanted.

Vanessa  

Yeah, unfortunately, and this is why I said I would have done things very differently. The conditions for me presenting at that final DVD was that I sent in update pictures of my body.

Will:  

Progress pictures. Oh wow.

Vanessa  

Yeah. And yeah, I do remember sort of that was I ironically, it was around the time that I found CrossFit, right? And functional training. And so my body changed rapidly, very dramatically.

Will:  

Right, because you've been doing the same thing over and over, you changed the training stimulus, which created a --

Vanessa  

-- exactly and I do remember I found, you know, this crossfit functional training, there were no mirrors in the in the gym. It was all about what you could do. You know, there were people of all sizes there. And I remember it was about six weeks before the filming was due. And I remember saying to my manager at the time and the people in New Zealand, I'm not doing this I'm not coming. Basically, I'm not interested in you know, I'm not, I'm not I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. You know, I'm not I'm not a puppet, I'm not doing it. You know, and somehow they talked me around to doing it. Again, had I had the opportunity to do it again, I would, you know, well, I would have walked out on the first one and not been there anymore. Which I think is a really interesting point, because of the way that this whole industry can wrap you up in its claws when you start to believe that that kind of that kind of behavior, those type of requests is actually very, very normal. Because what if you want to be a fitness trainer or a group exercise instructor and you have to look a certain way and so people can demand that off you when, in the cold light of day, looking at it with a completely different pair of eyes. Are you kidding? You're kidding. I've always been very, very, very keen and stuck to my guns about two things. And that is that if you can perform the exercises, well and have the fitness in order to demonstrate the exercises, and in the case of those particular classes, you did the class with the participants. So do you have the fitness, the stamina, and the strength in order to perform the moves in the way that they're intended? If the answer is yes, and if you can coach those moves to an ability where people can follow them safely, effectively and have a half good time. For me, that is job done. That is that is the requirement. If I wanted to be a model, then I would have chosen a completely different path, and I think that that's the bit where it got very, very blurred for me. And I did sort of lose a lot of faith in the industry where I just thought I you know, again, getting older also puts a different perspective on things but where I thought, hang on, where are we going to draw the line between instructors that are, you know, kicking butt and have great classes and great followers within their classes are great coaches can actually move, you know, like a champion, but might not be a cookie cutter, you know, UK size six to eight.

Will:  

Yeah, cuz what's the ultimate end goal? Is it to get the most people moving in the most people fit? Or is it to encourage people to look a certain way to get into the fitness industry? And that obviously, is something that I think is a big problem that we need to resolve if we're going to resolve a lot of the problems that we have with obesity and with lack of movement and muscle injury lifestyle.

Vanessa  

That's exactly right. And you know, I, you know, I also understand that you know, certain companies need people to look a certain way so, you know, the sponsors clothes can hang off the minister way. However, as you said, What is our end game here? What is what is What are we looking at long term? I do believe that it's changing a lot. And I think that, you know, as I said, I got into CrossFit and functional fitness. And I do believe that that's put a bit of a spin on on the way that things are. For a lot of people working out now, you know, no, lots and lots of you know, gyms are moving into no mirrors. It's all about what you what you do. It's all about, you know, self care, just get up and move. And, you know, there's lots and lots of different ways for people to do that now. So I do believe that that's changing.

Will:  

Yeah, I agree. So, you did the final Les Mills, like you did the final Les Mills DVD. And then I know you also did some work with Beachbody. And obviously we're working together now. But we've kind of transitioned into something that I also wanted to talk about, which is kind of looking forward to the future of our industry, and some of the stuff that we've talked about. And I don't think that it's possible to speak about the future of our industry without Recognizing kind of two of the massive things that have gone on one of them is COVID. And the fact that everything's sort of shut down and things have moved online. And the second is the events of sort of May and June of this year, which is the death of George Floyd and the Black Lives Matters protests, and all of the all of the kind of social awakening that's come alongside that. Now, given your sort of lived experience and what you've been through. I was wondering if you could just take us through a little bit how that impacted you and your experience of sort of the last couple of months.

Vanessa  

Yeah, I mean, I'll quickly touch on on COVID. First, as you said, I, you know, my fitness experience at the moment is limited to the great work that we do which Sh1ft together. I don't sort of actively teach you know that many classes or that many different programs or anything and so, watching the fitness industry, literally crumble In the wake of COVID has been devastating and it's really interesting to see what people want and need from the industry now, not just instructors. It's you know, it's been really interesting for watching on social media, what instructors are looking for from the from the industry, but also obviously people who, you know, whose whole exercise regime and routine and what they love and what they used to has changed. So yeah, you know, I think just looking at that from an outsider's, I think there's some really interesting conversations to be had about that. And then obviously, there is the Black Lives Matter movement, which is, um, yeah, I mean, it's impacted me hugely. I, I didn't realize how much it had impacted me until, you know, it was definitely a couple of weeks in after George George Floyd's passing.And, you know, speaking to a lot of other black people, there was a lot of realizations and a lot of emotions that were coming out. And it was literally the full spectrum of emotions within the space of a day, you know, within the space of a week within the space of events changing within the space of the media, you know, throwing different perspectives on things or highlighting different things. I think as a as a black woman who has quite a diverse upbringing and you know, quite a diverse what, you know, where I've lived and where I've, where I've grown up. There was a lot of things that I realized for the very, very first time and I know that we've, you know, we've had chats personally about this as well and something that I really want to bring up again was just how much I laid into making myself as palatable as possible in order to not draw attention to myself being black, you know, one of the things that that did lead me to think about was the fact that you know, the way that I look and the way that my body looks, and the way that it has looked in the fitness industry, and, you know, I was always accepted when I looked as thin as possible, even though that was not the way my body is naturally. And it's ironic how, you know, I went along with that for such a long time. And, and, and almost conformed to that as well.

Will:  

And it's funny because I look back at it from my obviously white men perspective. But as an outsider, you and I have laughed at people when you and I have shared laughts at you being called a diva, or an angry black woman, and I look back at that, and now I feel like, I feel a bit guilty for my part in that, although I know that you and I were friends and we were always laugh together. But just the fact that it was kind of a shared thing that we could laugh at, just because it was so obvious that if you made a request for anything, when we were on the same team, if you stood up for yourself, you were immediately a diva in the way that someone else would not have been called that.

Vanessa  

Yeah, that, you know, the I was a diva, or I was difficult. I was, you know, trouble where somebody else would have just been ballsy or headstrong or determined or, you know, whatever. Just, you know, to touch on that again, and this is exactly what I mean. And, you know, it's, it was the way that, it was so blatant. It was so blatant or even the microaggressions like oh my god, you know...I didn't realize they had black people in Australia.

Will:  

Oh god.

Vanessa  

Okay we do get on planes you know that's a thing right we we actually get on aircrafts now, or wow you're not really black black you know not you you're not really black black. And I just I love the fact that we've always been able to laugh about that Will, because it has allowed me to quantify and qualify, sorry, my pain or my emotion at that particular moment. And then laugh about it.

Will:  

Yeah.

Vanessa  

What the difference is, is when I've second guessed myself, or I've let it and you know, a microaggression or a full out racist, you know, comment go, because, well, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't want them to ever think I'm using the race card. Hmm, was it really racist or, you know, and and I think having the awareness since George Floyd's passing and Black Lives Matter movement really taking a massive big front seat, I am now confident to say no, that was not racist. That's because I was being a little mad. Or, actually, no, that was racist. And I'm gonna call you on it and I'm gonna ask you why you thought that was okay.

Will:  

So you've kind of done an audit of some of your,  you've spoken to me actually about this sort of in personal conversations where you've gone back through various situations that have happened and done that audit of, this is when I think it was this and this is when I think it was racism.

Vanessa  

Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I am 44 years old. That's a lot of files to go back over and think about, well, that was a proper racist attack. You know, And actually navigating completely new territory as to how to deal with that moving forward. And being confident enough and being strong enough and being and feeling supported enough with the people around me to be able to say, hey, I don't, I'm not really cool with that. Can you explain what you meant? Or can you, you know, give me a bit more of an idea as to why you thought it was okay to say that, whereas before, there was no way that that would have happened.

Will:  

So I have a question for you, which I think will be sort of relevant to some of the people listening. If you're a a white person, and you have black friends, and you think that sort of some of the interactions that you may have had with them over the years, in the hindsight of the blind hindsight of bright hindsight that we have now. What should you do? Like what's the best approach speaking as someone who's obviously been going through those emotions, like what do you suggest that a white person does if they suddenly think oh, I was a bit of a crap person back then?

Vanessa  

I would love to give you the answer to that the unfortunate thing about that is that one size doesn't fit all. And what I've noticed from my experience over the last couple of months is that black people are dealing with this very much at their own pace. They're very much dealing with it in their own way. I have spoken to people who don't want to have the conversations, yeah, it's too painful. It feels as though nothing will change. You know, they're not they don't trust the process. They're not trusting the fact that everybody's talking about it, the fact that everyone's you know, really, really wanting to support and be an ally, then there's there the people who are angry, and they, you know, just want to talk to you about all the wrongs that that have happened in their life. You know, I'm sitting more on the fence of well, I can't expect my friends to change if we don't have those conversations, right. Am I ready for those conversations at any given moment? No. Absolutely not some days, I just think I don't want to talk about this. You know, I don't want to talk about being black because I go to bed and I'm black and I wake up and I'm still black. And you don't have to have that conversation. But I'm going to have to have that conversation all day, every day. What I think that as a human, nobody can can discount or disregard is the fact that if you come from a place of kindness and love and authenticity, rather than just wanting to jump on a bandwagon, wanting to post a hashtag wanting to fulfill a great you know, a topic that's very now and very current, people will see the authenticity and the genuine desire for either gathering information, a lens, or learning or wanting to do better for next time. And I think that you know, check yourself and see where you're coming from with with the questions, with the comments, with the discussion and then go from there and if that person is not receptive, you know, that's their prerogative right now. I mean, you know, I could go on and on about this.

Vanessa  

It's, um, it's it's been a couple of, what is it June really, June, so July, it's been two months. It's been 400 plus years, that people you know, this is not something that is new to us. It's very traumatic watching people that look like you being killed. You know, I remember Rodney King, you know, the LA riots. Yeah, you know, that was dreadful. How many times have I had to see a shot, pictures you know, like, yeah, pictures of people that look like me that have been murdered. Or kids that look like my nephews and nieces or, or men that look like my brother or my nephews, you know, and and that starts to have an effect on you, you know when when you are taught and brought out by, you know, always make sure that you you wear nice clothes and that your shoes are really clean and you speak nicely because, you know, you're already black you don't want to give them another reason to you know, that sort of stuff, that doesn't go away in two months. Oh, great, we've had a conversation, we're good, we good now. It doesn't happen like that. So absolutely have those conversations because I think it's worse not to and I think it very much will

Will:  

--but be prepared to be told not right now.

Vanessa  

Yeah, not right now. Be prepared to, to, you know, have an awkward, uncomfortable conversation. When people check you on your on your biases. Um, and if you're not, maybe it's not the right time.

Will:  

Yeah. So, bringing this back to fitness, and sort of the statements that have been made, interestingly, I just wanted to get your take on one thing, just because we've obviously talked about your time at Les Mills. Les Mills made a very strong statement in relation to Black Lives Matter movement. And that included statements about diversity and cultural appropriation, which a lot of like, which I know reverberated around the industry. I think it was 100% well intentioned. But I'd be really interested to know as a black woman who has been presenting on, you know, multiple Les Mills DVDs and being a trainer and presenter, did you ever feel that there was a diversity problem within Les Mills and within your time there?

Vanessa  

No, I'm going to be really, really straight up and say that, you know, I think that in my opinion, Les Mills, absolutely 100% always got it right when it comes to diversity. And this is again, speaking from personal experience only. I never felt that I was there as the token black woman or the token person of color. I very much always felt that I was invited and I was there based on my talents, and never once did I think, oh okay, that's a that's a bit of a strange comment. You know, and, and as you said, I think it's a really big brave step for any company to release a statement like that. It's a very strong statement and it's, you know, it promises a lot of things. My personal opinion on that is that Les Mills never really needed to worry about things like that which can cheapen the movement and actually cause a lot of confusion when it comes to, what are you saying because you know, people of color appear on your DVDs you you know, you've had people, Asian people, you've had, you know, plenty of women. And it's sort of, it can actually sort of throw in a bit of a well I don't get it, what do you what are you trying to say? And are you just jumping on the bandwagon? Or, you know, are you maybe saying that you know, people will get a shot just because they are a person of color.

Will:  

--Right, which is something that I've seen on some forums now that with this but a statement that at least 50% will be people of color or and woman I've given some people that are saying now that's not fair in the other direction, which I think is just a whole conversation that doesn't need to be had because...

Vanessa  

You know, and this is again, this is my personal opinion. This is just something that I feel after, literally watching, you know, VHS, DVDs on to you know, videos, yeah. Never have I felt like oh, this is this is very white. Never, you know, absolutely never. I mean, the roots of Les Mills come from a very, very strong, you know, Maori culture. Um, you know, it sort of just didn't resonate with me in the way that I think it was intended. Although, I very much appreciate the fact that the effort was made. However, I believe that, you know, those those sentiments could have been better spent towards body diversity, which I know that has been a huge problem for a lot of people within the industry, within the industry of that company.

Will:  

Yeah, but not just Les Mills, right, like the fitness industry as a whole.

Vanessa  

Yeah, you know, and I think that that would have made a very, very strong statement.

Will:  

Going back to what we were saying before, do you think that your experience with body step 100 would happen the same way today with that...not your response to it, but do you think the situation would happen today?

Vanessa  

I'm so far removed from that company now that I genuinely have no idea. So from that perspective, from that company, I'm going to say yes, purely from the background noise that I've heard about, you know, what that company is still doing, how they're still coming across image wise, what they're still valuing as an image for their brand and for their company. I'm bound to think yes, that would have happened again. In the industry as a whole, no, I don't. And I'm not sure and I'd love to touch on this a little bit later, in a couple of minutes, as well. I don't know whether this is because of the people that I've now surrounded myself with and the brands that I've now aligned with, whether that shifted my perspective on the way that things are changing in the fitness industry. Or whether they really, really are changing, but no, I don't I don't think that that would happen nowadays.

Will:  

Right. So you've touched on this a little bit. So you, you've obviously changed your approach to fitness and the people that you're following and the voices that you're listening to. So how has that changed in who are the voices that you're now using as your kind of leading lights within fitness? And just generally?

Vanessa  

Yeah, look, I definitely credit this to my starting with CrossFit five years ago, and as I said, you walk into a very different environment to the group fitness room where it was mirrors, literally mirrors on mirrors. Yeah. And it was very much about what you'd look like and you know, and then moving into a CrossFit type world where it was all about performance, not a mirror to be seen, you know, you got dirty, you cheered for the person finishing last, the loudest for the person finishing last. You know, everybody could join in no matter what your abilities and I think that really flipped it on its head for me. When I and then I started to actively look for, for those type of people within the industry, you know, coaches and facilities and brands as well. You know, people that were actively putting in diverse body types, you know, tall, short, you know, bigger thighs, you know bigger boobs.

Will:  

I was really nailing it? If you can, can you think of any brands that if our listeners are out there and they think Who should I follow if I want to get more diverse kind of visual imagery of fitness?

Vanessa  

Clothing-wise or...

Will:  

Yeah just just generally, brands in the fitness industry that you think are doing really well?

Vanessa  

I'm going to be totally biased and say that Lululemon. I do and of course I've got a you know, a lot of the inside knowledge on where they want to go and what they actually genuinely believe in and I know for years now if you look at their online, or they you know, their their online stores, it's people have different colors, and there's definitely starting to go with more inclusive sizing and different different body shapes as well. And that's a big deal for them because they were very pigeon holed for a very, very long time.

Will:  

Right as the, kind of white yummy mommy that goes to yoga

Vanessa  

Absolutely. You know, and that is literally a size US 2, but you know, they will admit that, but they've also realized over the last, you know, couple of years that that needs to change, and I'm so proud to be associated with a company that is making active steps. You know, I think the other the other brand that that comes to life is Nike.

Will:  

Yeah, I was in Nike today. And there was the diversity of the mannequins and there was actually a child's running mannequin with a prosthetic a prosthetic, sort of knee, and it was just great because it was literally the mannequins reflected any type of different body shape that you could possibly get in front of you in that kind of, you know, place mannequin mold, but just diversity.

Vanessa  

Absolutley and it's I think it's very interesting and it'd be interesting to see how that kind of visual data is reflected in, in our, you know, shopping, or in in how we actually buy or even, you know, in a couple of years how we view ourselves by actually being able to even see mannequins that look a lot more like our soul that look, that don't all look the same. You know, but I think the fact that Nike, you know, and they made the news and the fact that they made this plus size mannequin, and I think that's great. Until that becomes normal, it will make the news.

Will:  

Yeah, so when it doesn't make the news is actually where maybe we're somewhere

Vanessa  

--we've hit the nail on the head. But I think the fact that you know, the fact that when you walk around the store, or when you're in a gym, most women don't look like a mannequin. Hmm. You know, some do, some are much smaller, you know, some are much bigger, some are much shorter, some are much taller. And I just think that, you know, it's great to be able to see all of those diverse body types and shapes and everything from two really great leading brands. You know, and then we've also got fitness companies who I think are really getting it right. And, you know, again, it's, it's, it's along the lines of the functional training, and I think the one that really definitely jumps out to me is the Foundry.

Will:  

Okay, yeah, I completely agree. So for those of you that don't live in London, we can put a little note in the show notes to the so you can kind of get a vibe of what the foundry is, but I completely agree with you.

Vanessa  

Yeah, um, you know, again, it's so welcoming. You have all different abilities. It's not a fashion parade. It's not a, you know, selfie in the toilets, type of vibe. You know, it's very much based on performance and the coaches really care. You know, the coaches actually really care about about their people and great friend of mine, Laura Hobbins, who is the director now of the Foundry. You know, she is someone that definitely springs to mind about,

Will:  

--right, we will put a link to her socials as well, because I think if you're a female in the industry, who is looking for a role model that isn't all about, it's about kind of how it makes you feel not about how it makes you look, then she's a great one to follow.

Vanessa  

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, she, let's not beat around the bush, the woman looks amazing. But you know, it's the fact that you know, she's a best selling author and she wrote the, you know, a book all about lifting and people who might not not be comfortable in the weight room and how to get started and, you know, I just think that that's super inspirational. I just think she's super inspirational and, and she's an incredible role model for, for people, not just women, but for people who just want to move and do maybe do something a bit different. Yeah, and just trying to, to feel great and to move their bodies.

Will:  

Having been in the fitness industry for how long? 25 years and kind of been through a roller coaster of different times and emotions and not coming to where you are now, what's the future of fitness for you, whereas Vanessa Labort as we move forward in 2020, and beyond having learned all that we've learned?

Vanessa  

Oh, God, I'd love to be able to say you know, that's it, I'm hanging my boots up but I don't think that ever happens. I think there's always that buzz and so I'm absolutely loving the work that we're doing together on Sh1ft obviously. And I have recently been looking into doing some more online type coaching and classes. And so you know, Sh1ft is the perfect model for that. Can't wait to roll that out at my own, on my own terms, you know, obviously and however many classes I want to do and...

Will:  

That's one of the great freedoms of moving virtual right there are so many instructors I know who are like they really sad about the fact that they can't teach in their gym but they're also not sad about the fact that they can put the washing on go and teach class in the lounge and then spend time with the kids.

Vanessa  

Yeah and possibly access so many more people that they've never been able to, you know, access before. So I think that and that is definitely a massive reason why I'm thinking, hmm, maybe I should pick up the boots again and instruct them up. I'm loving. I've recently treated myself to a peloton bike and I'm loving the peloton app and those cycling classes. Love, love, love that. Yoga has become a great staple in my workout routine as well. I did, I know we've had this conversation. I did have to think about whether, oh, should I teach that but I've managed to do that with CrossFit and Barre, where I've loved it so much I've gone and done the teacher training. And so I just think I'll leave this one alone. Now, but I just think as a, you know, as an instructor, you can never say never, I think the fire is always there...

Will:  

Which is, I think, a perfect sentiment to finish on. So, Vanessa, thank you so much for taking the time to tell us a little bit about your story. I'm excited to see what's to come. And I'm also obviously very excited that I'm going to have you fronting a lot of our R1ZE workouts, so I've got you back on a step teaching people how to do great step classes where you're supposed to be.

Vanessa  

Oh, my thing is, yeah, it definitely feels right. And thank you so much for having me and letting me share a little bit of my story. It's been really great.

Will:  

Thanks very much. 

Will:  

So, that was my interview with Vanessa. Vanessa has had an amazing career. But as you heard, she's also had to deal with some fairly big challenges which she's needed to work through, as well as the impact of the passing of George Floyd and impact on the lens through which she views the world. Vanessa has redefined her relationship with fitness and her body in a way that focuses on what it can do, and how it makes her feel rather than how it looks. With the Black Lives Matter movement, diversity has become a hot topic, which is so important. But as you heard from Vanessa, it's not enough to simply ensure that there's a person of every color represented in fitness. We also need to focus on bringing different body types, ages and levels of physical ability into the stage. I challenge you to take a look at some of the preconceived ideas you have about how a fitness instructor should look. One thing that you can do right now on your phone is to take a quick look at the brands and people that you are following on social media. Now be honest with yourself, do you see a broad range of people represented? Do you see images that make you feel included, that will make your class members feel included and mostly, that makes you feel good about yourself? Now if the answer is no, then you need to make a change. You can make a difference by supporting brands and people that celebrate the full range of bodies that exist in the community. The more people see themselves reflected in fitness imagery, the more they will feel that they have a place in fitness and the more lives that we can change. Now if you need a place to start, I've included links to some of the accounts that Vanessa mentioned in the show notes. Thank you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to subscribe for all the latest episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, please drop us a review. You can also get in touch with me at will@sh1ftfitness.com. I'm Will Brereton and you've been listening to Group Fitness Real Talk.